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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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 Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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u missed the point fat chris. very disappointing.
ah, ppl lure others into bad situations, targeting immigrants. the extent of damage differs case by case. that is a fact. that is my argument.
how bad does it have to be? its OK if its money? but not ok if it is sex? where u draw the line? me? i say it's all bad.
its rooted in taking advantage of immigrants. most of the time, it is based on a job offer.
what have u done to stop any of it? the most i could do was report on a case, according to how a DA wanted it reported. gut wrenching.
weird twist: in usa, it happens in immigrant community. won't go into details. it's awful.
guess what. i also don't like ppl being scammed to work illegally. come on over! we got a job 4 u.
lotta evil deeds done based on a job offer. when is it OK for u? if it's money and jail? it all disgusts me. not just some of it. but some of it... has given me nightmares.
monsters in this world. i'll defend none of em. the basis of chicanery is the same. the end result? is not. when is it ok to exploit?
chinese in SF haven't forgotten gold mountain. dare anyone here say it was the immigrants fault. few to no legal protection. its... even worse neighboring china. logging off. too intense a reality. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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"...what have u done to stop any of it? the most i could do was report on a case, according to how a DA wanted it reported. gut wrenching..."
Wait a minute. FTs are hired to teach, not to be superheroes or messiahs.
Are you suggesting that FTs should get involved in Chinese law enforcement?
I agree. Dave's needs an ignore button. |
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Riff Raff
Joined: 09 Jun 2014
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Bud Powell wrote: |
"...what have u done to stop any of it? the most i could do was report on a case, according to how a DA wanted it reported. gut wrenching..."
Wait a minute. FTs are hired to teach, not to be superheroes or messiahs.
Are you suggesting that FTs should get involved in Chinese law enforcement?
I agree. Dave's needs an ignore button. |
No, Bud, not suggesting that. Otherwise, I would have posted it. Silly. We all got opinions. I just doubt those offended here have worked in it or done anything about it, let alone research it in depth, be in home country or abroad. You won't see me going in depth with NoBillyNo re: motorcycles. I don't know much about it. He does.
Last reply from me on the topic. Forcing people is the worst. Coercion by threat of police, jail, and deportation are most common in USA. ppl tricked *choose* to remain in their situation. Fear of police, jail, and deportation scares them.
I don't hurt ppl. I follow the law. I don't blame the victim! I don't have answer for this thread. I'd like to see bad bosses and agents paraded by police.
In USA, lsw enforcement tries to ensure that nothing bad will happen to victims. For labor, like sweatshops in USA, you're screwed. Boss gets fined. Workers get jailed and deported.
Places still convert L and F to Z in country. China laws not always uniformly applied. u can do ur homework, still be in a bind. I don't blame the victim. It happens in all countries, from basic scam to worst case scenario. On a student level / worker level, it's usually deportation and fine. What course of action is available to immigrants to fix the problem?
I don't see "it's all the immigrant's fault" as a solution. I'm impressed Wandingnian hustled to find another job. Overwhelming and stressful situation. Won't the L run out of time before most ppl realize they need another job?
Bud, you're an educated man. Maybe you got solutions. What should happen to duped FTs? |
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vikeologist
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 600
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Duped FTs should try to get a legitimate job as soon as possible. This possibly would involve the expense of having to go back to their home country to get a Z visa. I'd like to see them rat out the employer that duped them, but obviously that would cause problems for any other duped FTs at the same school.
Ideally of course there would be better options for them. I think it's still possible sometimes to go to Hong Kong to get the Z visa. technically the new regulations last year changed nothing in this regard.
Someone who is in China on the wrong visa will be far more able to get a job than if they're back in their home country.
I don't see any reason why there couldn't be a thread about schools that lure folk on the wrong visa, except for the above point that it will cause problems for current illegal teachers at those schools.
We should just keep putting out the message on boards like this that people should 'Be Legal or Be Gone'. Not because we're horrible people that like to criticise other's behaviour to make ourselves feel better (though that's definitely true of myself) but because it's good advice.
However this takes the thread off topic, so I'll start a new one and see if it provokes any interesting responses or sharing of information. |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:43 am Post subject: |
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The problem one has is that most of us come from nations were we take people at face value.
I came to China expecting the thing's told to me to be true.
We don't expect people to just openly lie to make money, and the problem is that people will say 'Hey, come on tourist visa because there's no time to get you all the stuff yet.' But they promised you two months ago the stuff was on the way so you booked a flight [most foreigners book early for a cheaper rate], and then what can you do? Keep paying 150 euros to change the flight?
Just like when I got here and was told that the landlord needed 350 a month from me and my room mate each for electricity, we used almost none. I guess we used 50 but the school hood winked us into paying 700 between us. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:52 am Post subject: Re: New PSB crackdown on China Foreign Teachers Underway? |
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| RWA1981 wrote: |
| Supposedly the PSB visited a well-known school "affiliated" with BFSU for a visa check. They then made the teachers pee in cup for a random drug test. |
If the PSB come a 3rd time to our school, I'll be sure to have a paper cup of what looks like warm tea ready for them. I'll even add some tea leaves.
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jimpellow
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
| The problem one has is that most of us come from nations were we take people at face value. |
Much wisdom in this. |
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davelister
Joined: 15 Jul 2013
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Every once in a while the PSB checks our school, but guanxi allows for a heads-up first, and so some of my colleagues (the ones on L and F visas) are given a day off (paid) on those days. One eye open, one eye closed. Business as usual.
I still wouldn't risk working on an L or F visa, myself. I insisted on a Z visa from the start, and that's what happened (later converted to the Resident's Permit). |
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Banner41
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 656
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Riff Raff wrote: |
| vikeologist wrote: |
| I'm sure you realise it's somewhat of a false equivalence. |
good points all round. agreed. not same. some more sinister than others.
russian story: proof crime pays.
partly agree: look b4 leap. dont b stoopid. but hindsite 20/20. plenty o ppl lose their shirts.
few here blame scamers. unless its laowei. weird. |
I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. That deportation post is a bunch of BS. It's a new sock puppet account because the last one was banned. Don't be "scammed" by a laowai!-out |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Believe it or not, some foreign teachers sign 10-month contracts that assure them 10-month work permits which means that by the end of June they either convert their visa to L or fly back to their homelands. Either way may prove troublesome; mind you that in Guangdong changing L visa back into work permit is difficult to say the least. Keep in mind that some foreign teachers change jobs within the country and not all get clearance from their not always professional local employers which may result in work permit renewal refusals.
Due to such short term arrangements as mentioned, issues may worsen for the settled foreign teachers, especially the married ones who have options to get an employer sponsored work permit or wife sponsored residence permit which isn’t for work. How those foreign teachers deal with their legal permits would be interesting to read about; my acquaintance recently opted for a two year local wife sponsored residence permit and was given a “green card” application form which apparently may take more than two years to get and which to him is unclear whether he will be able to work on.
As for foreign teachers, who come on their Fs, Ls or who knows what else, I imagine that some may enter the country for a reason to look closer at what has been offered to them. The job market here is full of deceit and even one or two month experience may prove misleading. So, blaming those that come to further research their opportunities is, in my view, irrational.
Anyhow, offering sympathy or judgment to our colleagues is one way to look at the topic, understanding them is another. |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:22 am Post subject: |
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I have no idea what the post above says but I agree 110% with this:
| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Until ESL teachers get the message that you shouldn't be working on anything but a work visa, stupid people will continue to get screwed over. Why? Because your employer knows you're illegal and you've got no options when things go pear shaped. Lots of jobs around that will offer the Z visa before arrival, don't settle for anything less. |
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Bud Powell
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 1736
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
I have no idea what the post above says but I agree 110% with this:
| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Until ESL teachers get the message that you shouldn't be working on anything but a work visa, stupid people will continue to get screwed over. Why? Because your employer knows you're illegal and you've got no options when things go pear shaped. Lots of jobs around that will offer the Z visa before arrival, don't settle for anything less. |
Agreed.
Can anyone figure out what the strange twist in the conversation to sex slavery has to do with the OP? |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
I have no idea what the post above says but I agree 110% with this:
| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Until ESL teachers get the message that you shouldn't be working on anything but a work visa, stupid people will continue to get screwed over. Why? Because your employer knows you're illegal and you've got no options when things go pear shaped. Lots of jobs around that will offer the Z visa before arrival, don't settle for anything less. |
The message above is clear although narrow-minded just like the quote in it. People in China get into difficult situations whether they follow the laws, rules or regulations or not. Having no idea is one thing, being dull another. If we are to argue the chances of getting screwed on the right or wrong visa, then we've got ourselves a debate; however, if we just want to be purposely obtuse on the points that I have brought up in my previous post, we've got an incomplete view on the issue. |
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Alien abductee
Joined: 08 Jun 2014
Posts: 527
Location: Kuala Lumpur
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
| Alien abductee wrote: |
I have no idea what the post above says but I agree 110% with this:
| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Until ESL teachers get the message that you shouldn't be working on anything but a work visa, stupid people will continue to get screwed over. Why? Because your employer knows you're illegal and you've got no options when things go pear shaped. Lots of jobs around that will offer the Z visa before arrival, don't settle for anything less. |
The message above is clear although narrow-minded just like the quote in it. People in China get into difficult situations whether they follow the laws, rules or regulations or not. |
Sure. If you follow the rules and regulations and get into a difficult situation, then people on this forum will likely support you. When you ignore the rules (like so many people do) and get screwed over then it's on YOU. The fact that some aren't getting this message says a lot about the kind of people coming over here.
Does the government of your country let foreigners just waltz in on tourist visas and start working? I doubt it. Why should the Chinese accept it? |
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wonderingjoesmith
Joined: 19 Aug 2012
Posts: 910
Location: Guangzhou
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Alien abductee wrote: |
| wonderingjoesmith wrote: |
| Alien abductee wrote: |
I have no idea what the post above says but I agree 110% with this:
| Banner41 wrote: |
| I have 0 sympathy for stupid people who come and work illegally. |
Until ESL teachers get the message that you shouldn't be working on anything but a work visa, stupid people will continue to get screwed over. Why? Because your employer knows you're illegal and you've got no options when things go pear shaped. Lots of jobs around that will offer the Z visa before arrival, don't settle for anything less. |
The message above is clear although narrow-minded just like the quote in it. People in China get into difficult situations whether they follow the laws, rules or regulations or not. |
Sure. If you follow the rules and regulations and get into a difficult situation, then people on this forum will likely support you. When you don't follow the rules (like so many people do) and get screwed over then it's on YOU. I don't know if it's possible to make it any more clear than that.
Does the government of your country let foreigners just waltz in on tourist visas and start working? I doubt it. Why should the Chinese accept it? |
Do you know who "people on this forum" are? Sounds like you are putting the words in those people's mouths.
The powers of my nation surely go after illegal workers and any country has its rights to do the same. However, if a country does not have the rule of law protecting its employees as equally as its employers and if it has many of its regions using varieties of inconsistent practices, the acceptance of one strict standard may be open to a discussion at least.
Look I am not here to pick a fight with anyone; I am just suggesting some have a fair amount of issues with the system and the forum ought to consider that. Calling those teachers "stupid" is an overkill and perhaps disrespectfully dull as well.
I re-iterate to consider some teachers' concerns;
| Quote: |
Believe it or not, some foreign teachers sign 10-month contracts that assure them 10-month work permits which means that by the end of June they either convert their visa to L or fly back to their homelands. Either way may prove troublesome; mind you that in Guangdong changing L visa back into work permit is difficult to say the least. Keep in mind that some foreign teachers change jobs within the country and not all get clearance from their not always professional local employers which may result in work permit renewal refusals.
Due to such short term arrangements as mentioned, issues may worsen for the settled foreign teachers, especially the married ones who have options to get an employer sponsored work permit or wife sponsored residence permit which isn’t for work. How those foreign teachers deal with their legal permits would be interesting to read about; my acquaintance recently opted for a two year local wife sponsored residence permit and was given a “green card” application form which apparently may take more than two years to get and which to him is unclear whether he will be able to work on.
As for foreign teachers, who come on their Fs, Ls or who knows what else, I imagine that some may enter the country for a reason to look closer at what has been offered to them. The job market here is full of deceit and even one or two month experience may prove misleading. So, blaming those that come to further research their opportunities is, in my view, irrational. |
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