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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Why the global reputation for being a drinking institution then with degrees that are not respected? |
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kyivkyiv
Joined: 08 Aug 2014
Posts: 17
Location: Kiev, Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Martinaj wrote: |
| Does 6 hours of supervised teaching really trump 3.5 years of experience? This is just getting a little hard for me to wrap my head around. |
The main issue is that employers have no way of knowing if your 3.5 years of experience involved teaching lessons that promote learning or not. I too worked in China and saw many incompetent people who kept their jobs because they were popular with students. Mind you these were students who were permanently stuck at intermediate level English because the lessons weren't exactly effective.
6 hours of observed teaching practice + feedback does tell employers that you're able to produce and execute lesson plans which result in some degree of second language acquisition. The key components generally involve providing language input, having students do something to interact with the language (gap fills, matching activities, etc), at least one production activity, and feedback sessions thrown in at the appropriate times.
In your earliest stages of teaching both during and post-qualification you really do need feedback from an expert to understand what you're doing correctly and incorrectly. You need this for the same reason that students need feedback from their teacher.
Here's one example from my CELTA trainee days: I gave an observed listening lesson without attempting to activate schemata and the results were abysmal. The students understood about 10% of the comprehension questions after 3-4 listenings. I'd given this exact same lesson once before doing the CELTA, but did it with a video instead of only audio and it seemed to work better. During my feedback from the CELTA trainer, I maintained that the difference was due to having used video before. My CELTA trainer told me bluntly that the students had failed at the task because I failed to activate schemata before they listened. It took me a few more observed lessons to start to get schemata activation right, but I eventually got there. To be honest, I'm still working on doing a better job of activating schemata well after having done the CELTA. If I hadn't been observed and given feedback about this, I'd probably still be failing to sufficiently activate schemata before having students do receptive skills tasks and still be failing to teach receptive skills.
That is only one example of the impact of 40 minutes of the total 6 hours observed teaching practice. I'm sure other posters can provide examples of the developments they've made from being observed and given feedback. |
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adaruby
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 171
Location: has served on a hiring committee
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| kyivkyiv wrote: |
| Martinaj wrote: |
| Does 6 hours of supervised teaching really trump 3.5 years of experience? This is just getting a little hard for me to wrap my head around. |
In your earliest stages of teaching both during and post-qualification you really do need feedback from an expert to understand what you're doing correctly and incorrectly. You need this for the same reason that students need feedback from their teacher.
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It's vital that you've had feedback from competent senior teachers throughout your career, and there are countless CELTA graduates who have gone into jobs at half-arsed language schools, had no feedback and have subsequently gone backwards because of this.
The problems then occur when they go to a place with standards and the feedback they receive is not quite what they were expecting. They might have been popular with kids at their last place and have a few games up their sleeves, but there probably wasn't too much learning going on in the classroom and these bad habits they've picked up are now quite a problem.
Getting this sort of feedback 3/4 years down the line can be quite demoralising for teachers who are the bees knees in their own minds, so the sooner you're given the opportunity for professional development, the better. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think adaruby's latest is actually discussing two separate issues, maybe.
I totally agree about professional development, and my jobs over the past 15+ years have featured a very strong element of PD. However, I've spent the entire time working with relatively motivated adult students (most of whom think I'm the bee's knees).
Therefore, regardless of the PD I've engaged in, and my related upper-level quals, if I were put into a room with, say Chinese kindergarteners, I am absolutely, literally certain that my neighbor's Bernese mountain dog would do a better job than I could.
It's also about context and what skills a teacher has developed. For example, this is why even very highly skilled teachers who have worked only in Asia often struggle when they come to Europe - and vice versa!
Anyway, martinaj is evidently long gone - hopefully off to do a CELTA. |
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MsBlackcurrant
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 77
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| As has been said, the lack of assessed teaching practice is the problem if you want to work outside Asia later on. But I've noticed that a handful of training providers offer standalone TP courses for people who want to top up an online qualification. Would this be acceptable to some employers? I'd appreciate any comments. |
As a some-time European employer for over a decade - I don't think that a stand-alone TP course on top of an online TEFL would compete with an actual CELTA here - and 95% of candidates on this job market have a CELTA or equivalent. |
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adaruby
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 171
Location: has served on a hiring committee
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| Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I think adaruby's latest is actually discussing two separate issues, maybe.
I totally agree about professional development, and my jobs over the past 15+ years have featured a very strong element of PD. However, I've spent the entire time working with relatively motivated adult students (most of whom think I'm the bee's knees).
Therefore, regardless of the PD I've engaged in, and my related upper-level quals, if I were put into a room with, say Chinese kindergarteners, I am absolutely, literally certain that my neighbor's Bernese mountain dog would do a better job than I could.
It's also about context and what skills a teacher has developed. For example, this is why even very highly skilled teachers who have worked only in Asia often struggle when they come to Europe - and vice versa!
Anyway, martinaj is evidently long gone - hopefully off to do a CELTA. |
Two separate issues, but they were raised by the poster before me when s/he talked about support during and immediately after the CELTA. 
If I were given a class of 5 year olds to work with, I'd probably look for the nearest exit too- even if it was a window - but I'm fortunate enough to have had CPD ever since my 2nd teaching job, so I do think I have a good idea how to handle almost any level.
Of course there are cultural differences, but there are also things which are constant and, as you say, it's about the skills a teacher develops; skills which are generally developed via observations, feedback and the setting of achievable targets.
I'm occasionally involved in the recruitment process and it's staggering to speak to very well qualified people - and I'm talking MAs and PGCEs - who don't even get past the interview stage because they've had no support in an EFL classroom since getting their magic pieces of paper. |
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MsBlackcurrant
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| As has been said, the lack of assessed teaching practice is the problem if you want to work outside Asia later on. But I've noticed that a handful of training providers offer standalone TP courses for people who want to top up an online qualification. Would this be acceptable to some employers? I'd appreciate any comments. |
As a some-time European employer for over a decade - I don't think that a stand-alone TP course on top of an online TEFL would compete with an actual CELTA here - and 95% of candidates on this job market have a CELTA or equivalent. |
I'm sure you're right. But as much as European culture has inspired me, I don't think I'm likely to be looking for a long-term TEFL post here. Not in Western Europe, anyway. Maybe on the Eastern fringes.
I was hoping to go to Saudi Arabia at some point. I know they prefer onsite TEFL certs., but I've noticed that some job postings don't specify this, so perhaps employment there depends on a range of factors. |
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| MsBlackcurrant wrote: |
I'm sure you're right. But as much as European culture has inspired me, I don't think I'm likely to be looking for a long-term TEFL post here. Not in Western Europe, anyway. Maybe on the Eastern fringes.
I was hoping to go to Saudi Arabia at some point. I know they prefer onsite TEFL certs., but I've noticed that some job postings don't specify this, so perhaps employment there depends on a range of factors. |
I believe jobs--at least the good ones--in the KSA require a minimum of an MA in TESOL plus 2-3 years of college-level teaching experience. If that's your long-term goal, you might look into certificate programs with sufficient rigor to give you a bit of an edge when you apply for MA programs. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| MsBlackcurrant wrote: |
I want to return to TEFL after a gap, and I'm thinking of going to China with a company that offers online certification (120 hrs) with BridgeTEFL as part of the employment package.
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I was hoping to go to Saudi Arabia at some point. I know they prefer onsite TEFL certs., but I've noticed that some job postings don't specify this, so perhaps employment there depends on a range of factors. |
It's not about preference. The Saudi Ministry of Higher Ed doesn't want teachers with online anything---that includes degrees with online coursework and online TEFL certs. Therefore, without a TEFL-related degree, you're pretty much limited to Saudi contracting companies, and that also includes those few jobs in KSA that you claim don't indicate a valid, onsite TEFL qualification as a requirement. They won't be the type of position you'll want to take since Saudi contracting companies are known to be dodgy. In other words, the skimpier (more irrelevant) the applicant's qualifications, the sketchier the employer. |
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MsBlackcurrant
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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nomad soul and esl-prof
Fair enough! I do think an onsite course would be better for a number of reasons.
I don't think I'll be doing an MA in TEFL, though, as I've spent enough money studying for degrees. I might have to go for a job slightly further down the chain. It might be tough, but it would give me material for my memoirs, I suppose....
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esl_prof
Joined: 30 Nov 2013
Posts: 2006
Location: peyi kote solèy frèt
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| MsBlackcurrant wrote: |
nomad soul and esl-prof
Fair enough! I do think an onsite course would be better for a number of reasons.
I don't think I'll be doing an MA in TEFL, though, as I've spent enough money studying for degrees. I might have to go for a job slightly further down the chain. It might be tough, but it would give me material for my memoirs, I suppose....
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So long as you're flexible in your destination, there's plenty of good jobs out there that require only a BA + TEFL cert.
Last edited by esl_prof on Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| esl_prof wrote: |
| MsBlackcurrant wrote: |
| I don't think I'll be doing an MA in TEFL, though, as I've spent enough money studying for degrees. I might have to go for a job slightly further down the chain. It might be tough, but it would give me material for my memoirs, I suppose.... |
So long as your flexible in your destination, there's plenty of good jobs out there that require only a BA + TEFL cert. |
Yep, but that would be for jobs outside the Gulf. |
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MsBlackcurrant
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I do have some TEFL and other language teaching experience too, for what it's worth. And I'm not in a rush to get to Saudi, so I'll happily work elsewhere for a few years after getting a proper certificate. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| What are your degrees in? |
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