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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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 Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dear bonesleet
"Of course, you've never worked as a military contractor or for the oil industry, so you don't know either."
Wow - you know all my work history, too, huh? Well, at least you think you do. But really, you don't. 
Regards,
John |
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bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: IPAway |
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| I've been reading on Dave's for 14 years, John. I'm familiar with your work history. Your affinity for the Air Force is valued, but if you've ever worked for any of the employers that I mentioned -- SRACO, HAKA, Al Hoty, Al Falak, JAL, Raytheon, Booz Allen, and Northrup -- then it's news to me. I do appreciate much of what you've written in the Saudi Forums. However, I know that you do enjoy derailing threads from time to time and are prone to join in the wolfpack when they feel like going after someone considered to be an easy target. But if you ever find me posting about IPA, then I'd be glad to hear your comments. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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The Air Force
Well, I rest my case. 
Regards,
John
P.S. I'm a lone wolf.  |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bonesleet wrote: |
| How could we mere mortals ever be “realistically worth” as much as the people who are entitled to over 4000 posts and are all-to-willing to pass judgment on others? Or to simply tell them to bugger off by telling them to go post on another website? Of course, I suppose it’s easier to take the moral highground than it is to simply admit that you don’t know the answers to my questions. That, habibi, might actually require some humility! |
I didn't tell you to "bugger off" and go post elsewere. There really are other expat forums on the Net where people do discuss salaries for jobs in the KSA. There are also websites like GlassDoor that indicate an average or range of salaries. But frankly, pay has been discussed on this forum as well, so maybe the issue is that you're not seeing anyone mention the level of salary you want, whatever that amount is.
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| Kind of hard to do when companies and coworkers keep salary ranges private. They do that for a reason, you know. For the companies, they simply don’t want to have to pay us any more than they think they have to. So if the person next to us has similar qualifications and is making more, then they can conveniently blame us for not using good enough "cheesy negotiation tactics." For the co-workers, they’re already getting theirs, so who cares about you. Not that you’d ever contribute to a dysfunctional work environment . . . |
Not only KSA, but many companies in the US also don't post salaries. But if you have no clue what others earn, instead of spinning your wheels hoping ad infinitum for them to disclose their (true) salaries, figure out what you need to make and use that as your starting point. |
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fledex
Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 342
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Why so little? |
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| bonesleet wrote: |
fledex wrote:
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| If you go to Baish, 500 SAR is probably doable. |
Not a math major, were you, fledex? I take it you mean 5000 Riyals? 500 SR would only be about $133. Even 5000 SR isn't much money. It's less than $16,000 a year. But as long as teachers accept salaries that low, then employers will keep offering them. I don't know about you, but I've spent about $150,000 on my post-secondary education, not to mention several years of my life. Does that mean that I should accept less than $1400 a month as my salary? Seems like a rip off to me, but it's your time and your life. |
Pretty dense boneh _ _ d. We're talking about spending, not salary. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:19 am Post subject: |
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It is worth noting that for direct hire university jobs, there are salary scales, Just as in the civil service in any country, you will be slotted onto a salary scale depending on qualifications and experience. No room for negotiations. A strange factor in KSA is that experience is only counted AFTER the award if the highest degree that you hold. So a BA with 20 years teaching after it might get you more than a PhD with 5
Our critic Boney only wants to work for the Merchants of Death and the Fossilfuel Companies, so that will not concern him.
I am surprised that he claims to have been on Daves for 14 years - perhaps with another username - but has never come across the "500 Club*. |
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bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: Hmm |
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johnslat wrote:
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| Well, I rest my case. |
Thank Allah! Praise be upon Him!
nomad sould wrote:
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There really are other expat forums on the Net where people do discuss salaries for jobs in the KSA.
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Yes, but it's not really that helpful to know what engineers are making when I'm looking for a job teaching English.
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There are also websites like GlassDoor that indicate an average or range of salaries.
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Again, not specific enough to teaching English in Saudi Arabia in particular.
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But frankly, pay has been discussed on this forum as well, so maybe the issue is that you're not seeing anyone mention the level of salary you want, whatever that amount is.
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Well, it certainly is an issue. I'll grant you that.
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figure out what you need to make and use that as your starting point.
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I've gotten enough responses from people who have actually worked for the companies that I'm interested in working for that I'm better able to gauge what I can reasonably negotiate. But, of course, to anyone with an academic background, I know that more data can only help me fine tune the numbers.
fledex wrote:
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bonesleet wrote:
fledex wrote:
Quote:
If you go to Baish, 500 SAR is probably doable.
Not a math major, were you, fledex? I take it you mean 5000 Riyals? 500 SR would only be about $133. Even 5000 SR isn't much money. It's less than $16,000 a year. But as long as teachers accept salaries that low, then employers will keep offering them. I don't know about you, but I've spent about $150,000 on my post-secondary education, not to mention several years of my life. Does that mean that I should accept less than $1400 a month as my salary? Seems like a rip off to me, but it's your time and your life.
Pretty dense boneh _ _ d. We're talking about spending, not salary.
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You'll have to excuse me for not being able to read your mind.
scot47 wrote:
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It is worth noting that for direct hire university jobs, there are salary scales, Just as in the civil service in any country, you will be slotted onto a salary scale depending on qualifications and experience. No room for negotiations. A strange factor in KSA is that experience is only counted AFTER the award if the highest degree that you hold. So a BA with 20 years teaching after it might get you more than a PhD with 5
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Interesting. It's making more and more sense how those grapes got to be so sour for you, which is why I learned many years ago to ignore half the sh#t you say. |
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bonesleet
Joined: 21 Jun 2014
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Hmm |
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| bonesleet wrote: |
johnslat wrote:
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| Well, I rest my case. |
Thank Allah! Praise be upon Him!
nomad sould wrote:
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There really are other expat forums on the Net where people do discuss salaries for jobs in the KSA.
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Yes, but it's not really that helpful to know what engineers are making when I'm looking for a job teaching English.
| Quote: |
There are also websites like GlassDoor that indicate an average or range of salaries.
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Again, not specific enough to teaching English in Saudi Arabia in particular.
| Quote: |
But frankly, pay has been discussed on this forum as well, so maybe the issue is that you're not seeing anyone mention the level of salary you want, whatever that amount is.
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Well, it certainly is an issue. I'll grant you that.
| Quote: |
figure out what you need to make and use that as your starting point.
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I've gotten enough responses from people who have actually worked for the companies that I'm interested in working for that I'm better able to gauge what I can reasonably negotiate. But, of course, as someone who's taken Research Methods, I know that more data can only help me fine tune the numbers.
fledex wrote:
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bonesleet wrote:
fledex wrote:
Quote:
If you go to Baish, 500 SAR is probably doable.
Not a math major, were you, fledex? I take it you mean 5000 Riyals? 500 SR would only be about $133. Even 5000 SR isn't much money. It's less than $16,000 a year. But as long as teachers accept salaries that low, then employers will keep offering them. I don't know about you, but I've spent about $150,000 on my post-secondary education, not to mention several years of my life. Does that mean that I should accept less than $1400 a month as my salary? Seems like a rip off to me, but it's your time and your life.
Pretty dense boneh _ _ d. We're talking about spending, not salary.
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You'll have to excuse me for not being able to read your mind.
scot47 wrote:
| Quote: |
It is worth noting that for direct hire university jobs, there are salary scales, Just as in the civil service in any country, you will be slotted onto a salary scale depending on qualifications and experience. No room for negotiations. A strange factor in KSA is that experience is only counted AFTER the award if the highest degree that you hold. So a BA with 20 years teaching after it might get you more than a PhD with 5
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Interesting. It's making more and more sense how those grapes got to be so sour for you, which is why I learned many years ago to ignore half the sh#t you say. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, Boney what was your previous username ? I mean the one you used before you were booted off the forum ? |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| Well, Boney what was your previous username ? I mean the one you used before you were booted off the forum ? |
Come on now, it's not that difficult to get "booted off the forum." |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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It's odd how some people apparently can derive pleasure from long-distance
nastiness.
Are they the same in "real" life with those they interact with on a daily basis?
Perhaps some are and some aren't.
While the first group would likely be lonely, the second seems more pitiful.
Regards,
John |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bonesleet wrote: |
Yes, but it's not really that helpful to know what engineers are making when I'm looking for a job teaching English.
....
Again, (GlassDoor is) not specific enough to teaching English in Saudi Arabia in particular. |
Frankly, those engineer salaries are useful to know. If you hope to get more than an engineer, then your salary expectations for an EFL teaching position are unrealistic. Anyway, instead of being passive, post your own questions specific to your job/target salary on other forums.
| bonesleet wrote: |
| I've gotten enough responses from people who have actually worked for the companies that I'm interested in working for that I'm better able to gauge what I can reasonably negotiate. But, of course, to anyone with an academic background, I know that more data can only help me fine tune the numbers. |
Good luck with that. By the way, I suggest you also curb the unwarranted, hostile attitude toward those who are only trying to be helpful simply because you're not getting the exact response you want. But yeah, good luck with that. |
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myohmy
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
"How could we mere mortals ever be “realistically worth” as much as the people who are entitled to over 4000 posts and are all-to-willing to pass judgment on others? Or to simply tell them to bugger off by telling them to go post on another website? Of course, I suppose it’s easier to take the moral high ground than it is to simply admit that you don’t know the answers to my questions. That, habibi, might actually require some humility!"
One of the best examples of the red herring fallacy (not to mention ad hominem) that I've seen in quite a while.
Regards,
John |
Oh, I don't know about that. I think bonesleet's assessment is pretty spot on. The "old timers" do seem to be a pretty arrogant and condescending lot. More than a few of my colleagues have stated they won't post here for that very reason. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Dear myohmy,
It's still a red herring - avoiding answering by using an ad hominem attack.
Sorry our arrogance has scared off your colleagues, but glad to see you're made of sterner stuff.
Regards,
John |
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myohmy
Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fear has cowed my colleagues in the workplace, too. On the other hand, I have hoped that my habit of speaking out and questioning administrative decisions would indeed get me sacked, as so many seem to believe that such actions inevitably lead to this result. Sadly, in my case at least, it has not, but it would really make my day. One is probably far more likely to get booted from "Dave's" for questioning the wisdom of an all-knowing old-timer. |
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