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grahamb
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945
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 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:31 pm Post subject: Putin his foot in it |
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| Afghanistan, Chechnya, Syria... one mistake after another. Uncannily like American and British foreign policy. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
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gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015
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Location: 999
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Putin his foot in it |
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| grahamb wrote: |
| Afghanistan, Chechnya, Syria... one mistake after another. Uncannily like American and British foreign policy. |
I don't remember Russia, not the USSR, doing that in a decade. I believe they were also asked into Syria, vs pushing themselves in. No more wars it was claimed. I need almost both of my hands to count the wars now.
Russia is helping to stabilize a country, something new on the foreign policy front. |
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grahamb
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:34 am Post subject: War and Peace |
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| Russia fought two wars in Chechnya, the first from 1994-96 and the second from 1999-2009. More recently, Putin and his pals have been involved in the conflict in the Ukraine. He's no dove. |
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gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 372
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Putin his foot in it |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
| Russia is helping to stabilize a country, something new on the foreign policy front. |
How?
By sending fighter jets and navy to bomb civilians and children in Syria?
Do you call this "stabilize a country"?
Russian foreign policy is to advocate its interests by any means, including using 'hard power', regardless of innocent victims. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| In the West the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan is portrayed as an invasion. It was in fact support for one faction in the Afghan Government. There was a Civil War, with the Soviets supporting the modernisers against the Mujahideen. The Pentagon and their allies provided huge amounts of support to the reactionaries. The West is now reaping the rewards for supporting those medieval barbarians. |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Charlie Wilson's War |
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gregory999
Joined: 29 Jul 2015
Posts: 372
Location: 999
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| In the West the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan is portrayed as an invasion. It was in fact support for one faction in the Afghan Government. There was a Civil War, with the Soviets supporting the modernisers against the Mujahideen. The Pentagon and their allies provided huge amounts of support to the reactionaries. The West is now reaping the rewards for supporting those medieval barbarians. |
Now the Russians are supporting Assad against other parties of the civil war.
Do you think Assad is a moderniser or a dictator? |
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buravirgil
Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 967
Location: Jiangxi Province, China
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gregory999 wrote: |
| scot47 wrote: |
| In the West the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan is portrayed as an invasion. It was in fact support for one faction in the Afghan Government. There was a Civil War, with the Soviets supporting the modernisers against the Mujahideen. The Pentagon and their allies provided huge amounts of support to the reactionaries. The West is now reaping the rewards for supporting those medieval barbarians. |
Now the Russians are supporting Assad against other parties of the civil war.
Do you think Assad is a moderniser or a dictator? |
He is, nor was, neither. Both his and his father's "presidency" were imperfect compromises produced by religious faction-- a Shia minority (specifically, Alawite) among a much larger Sunni population. I follow your objection to framing any international conflict in binary terms of US/USSR policy, but asserting another binary won't proceed as well as more nuanced descriptions. Assad was, at times, criticized by his own faction as a moderniser. But when peaceful protests were dispersed by coordinated gunfire (in the wake of the Arab Spring) and officers from a national army formed a resistance, Assad's legitimacy became a complex question characterized by assertions such as holding elections during wide-spread civil "unrest". For the first two years, Assad asserted "civil war" was not the scenario all while proceeding to butcher and poison opposition. His father had done the same in even more severe terms, but the nation had held. Different time, different outcome.
By "severe" I would cite a number of deaths in a shorter duration. What Assad's direction has produced is worse by any metric you care to name. The country's razed. I was in Damascus in 2010 and it's astounding all of that is gone. It was a time-capsule of a capital...gone. Lives, most importantly, screw the scenery, architecture, way-of-life...the nation's mass exodus, its refugees, signal an end more than anything else. It's over. Assad's presence in the country is only evidence of empty and flawed state powers masquerading as viable policy. |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: Putin his foot in it |
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| gregory999 wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
| Russia is helping to stabilize a country, something new on the foreign policy front. |
How?
By sending fighter jets and navy to bomb civilians and children in Syria?
Do you call this "stabilize a country"?
Russian foreign policy is to advocate its interests by any means, including using 'hard power', regardless of innocent victims. |
The UN and Syria have denied that any of that happened. It is coming from US media who refuse to acknowledge that the US bombed a hospital in Afghanistan. In that case there is clear evidence and it is internationally recognized. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| gregory999 wrote: |
Now the Russians are supporting Assad against other parties of the civil war.
Do you think Assad is a moderniser or a dictator? |
So, wait, foreign fighters constitute a civil war? If illegals in the US started fighting the government would you call it a civil war. Civil implies the fighters are citizens. Sorry the Saudis, Turks, and (cough cough) Israeli and US who have been the opposite faction do not quite make a civil war. It is an invasion to force regime change.
Assad is a dictator, but one who has huge support among the Syrian people. They do not want another dictator, and are smart enough to know what would happen. What do you think would happen if Washington's "moderate extremists" took power? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| A long time ago, Washington decided that they wanted Mr Assad to go. They have been working on that for many years. |
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