Job Discussion Forums

[bobs12]

Hi!

Interesting to see a post here from an expat girl- where are you from? I guessed UK? Well, big long post coming since I arrived at work four hours early this morning. Apologies to everybody but if you're not interested, there's no need to read to the bottom. Nothing scandalous in this one, just a lot of my usual early-morning rambling and bleary-eyed typos...

I think a lot depends on why people come here- If people come to Russia looking for sex- fine, they'll get it, and if they have trouble getting laid in their own country, they'll probably have more luck here. They certainly seem to get plenty, and often a lot more than they bargained for. Hee hee. If they're freaks or nerds in their own country, they won't find themselves being judged by the same standards as they would at home.

I don't know that Russian girls quite live up to those reputations- sure, some certainly do, I can vouch for that, but in any country there are girls like that. I think that we, as foreigners, just see more of those and feel that they are the norm rather than an exception. There certainly is the 'getmeouttahere' element, and it's a sad, sad thing when that devalues a girl's self esteem to the extent that she is willing to practically sell herself to some Western sleazeball. That said, teenage prostitution is high here. But that's another story

It's not just those girls that lack pride, it's the pathetic sods that come here looking for them. Then there's the misconception among (some) Russians that foreign men are 'better' than Russian men. If anyone is better equipped than a Russian man to deal with the caprice and envy of a Russian girl, I'd like to know who he is. All that Foreigners can do is flatter and excite with the promise of something exotic. I don't see how these guys, born in different cultures, think that it's going to be easier to find the loves of their lives here. Smacks of pubescent fantasy.

I remember at home that when a foreigner came to town the girls would parade around him like cats on heat. The same went for the guys. If a foreign girl came to town, I mean. The first girl I met from Russia was studying at my university in Glasgow- almost everywhere she went she got propostitions of one kind or another. We got into a relationship, and that didn't stop people from coming on to her, even when we were together. They treated her like a girl of loose morals (forum word filter won't allow the mild s-word I wanted to use) and I felt ashamed to be Scottish.

Would they have married the foreigners? Doubt it. Especially in our community, a foreigner who didn't speak English, never mind the local dialect, was just a tourist. You've go to wonder what people expect, getting into relationships with foreigners here in Russia. In our country, at least in my region, I reckon the average Joe would just use a foreign girl for sex. The lure of the fixed-term affair. She's got a ticket home, and life goes back to normal.

I think it's all something to do with excitement and maybe the kudos of 'pulling a French/Italian/Spanish bird'. Now it's 'Europeans have been done lads, let's move on to Eastern Europe and Russia', etc. etc.

I have to admit that as an adolescent, I did kind of 'fantasise' about a foreign girlfriend, but not Russian. Russia never entered my mind- I wanted to go to a more developed country to get away from the small-mindedness and insularity of the British Isles. Not to get away from cruel/ugly/otherwise undesirable British girls. I wanted to see the world through my own eyes. I thought about Norway, Sweden, even Japan- beautiful countries, beautiful people, civilisation and order. Scandinavians compatible with Scots, notwithstanding some bloody shared history. Contrast it all with Russia.

I met a rare and wonderful soul in Glasgow who got a lot of that out of my head. She'd had the same kind of upbringing as me, she was aware of the world around her, and moreover she was aware how little we really knew about it. We actually hoped to move together to Scandinavia; the insularity, the bigotry and hatred gave us both claustrophobia. Sadly, my coming here took that away from me.

People coming here looking for love is just lunacy. I've seen it done- some think they can come on a tourist visa and fall in love with a girl in a bar. Some come for longer and try to live here, but all the time intent on finding 'love'. Russia does funny things to people- whether it's an effect of culture shock or what, I've no idea, but it seems to intensify everything- emotions, moods, obsessions. So come here looking for something particular and it controls your life. Come looking for love and you can kiss your sanity goodbye. Gogol's Nevskii Prospect is frighteningly true to life.

I don't think I'm the only guy here not on a shag-a-thon, the rest are probably too busy working to even know about the forum, never mind write in it. I just have lots of time and free internet at work, and it kind of keeps me sane. I know a few teachers here- one is in a stable relationship with a very sweet girl, the other is just too busy building up his business empire to even contemplate a girlfriend. I think that there is a strong connection between sleaze and the internet, hence a shift in the balance towards scumbags on forums.

If I'd written about my, err, 'love-life', you might think a little differently of me, and Mr. England wouldn't be so smug. But it's not a thing to boast about- I'm a normal, as you say- 'red-blooded', male, I live here, and for me, a healthy relationship is part of a normal life. Needs must. I reckon my viewpoint is different from most because I was sent here pretty much against my will, and only then decided to stay and work because of difficulties and a general lack of will and opportunity to return home. Work comes first, or else I starve and die. Relationships come second, but ooooohhh, there's my first mistake. Never put anything in front of your girlfriend.

I would advise people to think seriously about coming here looking for women, no matter what their intentions for them may be. Mr. England's reaction was really interesting, accusing me of telling others to 'do as I say, not as I do', though he did phrase it rather more clumsily. Well, others are welcome to do what they want. If they want to put themselves in my situation, they're welcome to. Things might even work out for them. But if they do what they seem to be talking about, they're only kidding themselves. Better to stay at home and build up the right forearm.

Suggesting that I was telling people to 'do as I say, not as I do' was just hilarious. I can just see a child in a tantrum stamping his feet at not being allowed to stay up late, and screaming injustice because mum and dad go to bed whenever they want. Or the adolescent scolded for smoking by his forty-a-day partents. Interesting insight into the psyche of the not-quite-grown-up man desperate to be taken seriously.

Well, I'm not commanding anyone, I'm just offering advice in a situation where, If I recall, advice was requested. I've met people before who look for the advice they want to hear, and reject anything that doesn't fit their criteria for an acceptable rsponse. I've done that myself, but such a hostile reaction is just hilarious. I hope that guy's not a teacher, if that's how he reacts to provocation. He'll be taken apart in Russia. If he is a teacher, he better figure out how to unleash that superior mental capacity of his before he gets into the classroom. He's been holding back so much that I suspect the release will be like a neuron bomb with a vast knowledge cloud and a fallout of pure intellect. There should be enough there to at least write in proper English and to argue a point without recourse to expletives.

Without wanting to live up to Mr. England's perception of me as a pompous idiot, I think that his posts really typify the personality of guys who come here to get shagged. Impetuous, frustrated (read very frustrated) bashing their keyboards, frothing lager at the corners of their mouths and all the while screaming in their heads "It's not true, it's not true!!" Still, it takes all sorts. I suppose there's a place for them here. I feel that I've blasphemed in the temple of some cult of mentally deranged Russophiles. I'm used to getting abuse from the maniac minority for holding such disagreeable views, but to get it on a teaching forum is an eye-opener.


As a lengthy footnote to this lengthy ramble, I'd like to make a few points clear. In my previous posts, I have not intentionally slighted Russian girls. Sure, I've had some heart-breaking experiences at their hands, but I've been trying to caution some young pups that seem intent on getting themselves into trouble, not to even the score with Russian Women. I've only had one real relationship with anyone not Russian, so maybe that gives me an odd viewpoint. The other relationships all broke down because of cultural differences that we couldn't cope with. (If you guys think you're more man than I am, and able to deal with anything for the sake of a Russian Girl, then maybe you are. You don't need to take my word for anything, but you also don't need to hurl abuse at users on this forum.)

I loved the girls I went out with and all but one of them loved me equally as strongly. Admittedly, I chose to end the relationships, but it was never an easy decision to make. Their being Russian made them no less attractive or intelligent or charming or decent or whatever. But it did mean that there were certain unavoidable cultural factors that were impossible to reconcile. They are not Russian Girls, they are women and deserve to be respected and treated with the same decency as women in any country, developed or otherwise.

For people who are really serious about coming here for women- examine your motives. Stop for a moment and think what you're really looking for. Ask yourself if you understand the implications of living long-term as a foreigner in Russia. Are you willing to give up your nationality to ensure that you can stay in the country with the woman you choose? You should be aware of the political situation, and the fact that the rights for foreigners to live here on multi-entry visas could be tightened or changed completely at any moment. My example:


Read no further unless you want to know all my personal dilemmas! Splurge alert!



As I already mentioned, I have a girlfriend. She's beautiful, she's kind, she's witty, we've been together for six months and we love each other very much. There are all the usual cultural niggles that exist in such relationships, but for the time being we get by. We have a lot in common.

A familiar story, and one that usually ends in tears. Those niggles are what eventually kill cross-cultural relationships.

At the beginning, it's easy to deal with them, but no matter how much of a hero you think you are, you have to realise that those niggles are unlikely to go away. On the contrary, as familiarity breeds contempt, you can expect them to become more evident and to cause more arguments as time goes on. Judging by the level of tolerance of certain people posting in this thread, I think they have no better chance than I of succeding in such a relationship. So a-bed-hopping they will likely go, looking for the relationship without the niggles. They won't find it, they always rear their ugly little heads sooner or later. If people can't deal with the difficulties of a monocultural relationship, better to lock yourslef in the bathroom.


My girlfriend's married. The divorce is coming soon. She has a five-year-old child. She can only have one more child, and we already want it to be ours. The kid's great, we take him to McDonalds and he devours his Big Mac and fries while I talk to his mum about life and love and everything. All the time I know that when reality hits us, there's a chance that it'll go the way of many relationships. Don't say it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's not. It's life.

When she separated from her husband, she had the option of letting the child go to live with his father's parents. They have a stable home and a good income, and plenty of time on their hands to deal with raising a child. Out of love for him, she wouldn't let him go. She's a brave girl. Her only remaining living relative is her mother. Between them they manage to look after the kid, and she still finds time for me.

I don't just love her, I admire her for her courage and respect her deeply. Hundreds in the UK abandon children in such situations. She works hard and just scrapes by. She copes well with the death of her alcoholic father, and with other disturbing things I won't mention here. I wonder whether I can be as strong and responsible as she is.

In a day I earn more than my girlfriend does in some weeks. We could buy a house out of town and live happily ever after. She would never have to worry about money or her child's future again. In theory. The reality is that I could lose my job, I have no right to social benefits in this country and couldn't guarantee that I'll find another job with such good wages. Anthing could happen. Residence laws could be changed and I might have to live on a permit. I might be investigated and deported for my breaking immigration laws for the last two and a bit years.

Marina couldn't leave the country very easily because she doesn't speak English. If she takes a European nationality, there's even a chance she won't ever be allowed to return to Russia. Forever trapped in lifelong culture shock. Out of Russia I can't be sure that I can earn a wage that will support a family in the way we are accustomed to living here. If the relationship breaks down, where can she go? Would my conscience allow me to cut her loose and get back to my own life? Would yours?

That scenario doesn't just apply to me. None of us are Russians. We don't have the right to live here, and we don't know what's coming round the next corner. It can happen to any of us.

My irresponsibility lies in the uncertain future of our relationship, and the fact that I know about it. If it's not going to last, she should be looking for someone else and not wasting time with me. Her son needs a father, and she needs love and support. I already tried once to end the relationship. Not because I didn't love her, but because I didn't want her and her child to become attached to someone who might not be the anchor that they need. The reaction terrified me, and we didn't separate. Now we are closer than before, and I dread to think how she'll cope if something comes between us. But at my tender age, how can I justify nailing myself into this country? Love does bad things to our reasoning, it takes away our abilities to think about anything other than the moment.

Guys, if you've read this far, answer honestly. What would you do in this situation? What would you advise me to do? What were you thinking when you read about me being unsure of the future? If you were thinking 'I'd stay at all costs and look after her,' then I'd say you're dreaming. Can you really imagine trapping yourself in a police state riddled with anarchy and corruption, just for one girl? We're not heroes, and we have to be practical about life here. We don't know what the future holds. I get the feeling you're not thinking realistically about the long-term committments involved. If you are, and you still want to come just for a woman, congratulations- you're determined, to say the least.

If you do strike up a relationship with a girl here, remember that there are likely to be a lot of expectations- more than would be placed on a local man. You better be ready to fulfil them.

Sorry for pouring all that out on your screens, but that's just one reality. All the roses here have especially sharp thorns, and there's nothing unique about my story. I've heard it now at least a dozen times, often from very sincere and caring guys who come here looking for a girl exactly like Marina, or maybe a little older. They're not all sleazy. Some are divorced with grown-up children, and see a chance to start again by 'adopting' a family from a poor country and give a young mother and her children a chance for a 'better life'. They may have big hearts, maybe more sentiment than sense, and at least a smidgin of altruism. I would extend to them a much warmer version of my cautions, as all such relationships I've heard of so far have either broken down here or in the man's home country.

A bit like me with old, knackered cars- a relationship with a girl that relies upon you for support feels more 'solid' and more certain. It gives you control, if that's what you want. You feel more confident in her love for you. You can take her for granted. And that's when she'll bolt at the firt smell of freedom. What does it have to do with cars? Oh, nothing. I just feel a car is more 'mine' when I've delved into its innards and repaired broken parts. See the connection?


Then there are guys who come here to find eighteen-year-old sex toys. The first thing that I'd extend to them is a swift left hook, followed by a pair of castration pliers.

[waxwing]

[bobs12]

Whyzzat? Come, on, you've got my curiosity going now!

[waxwing]

Well I mean the foreign male/local women relationships there are probably worse even than Russia, right? I mean I've only been there once as a tourist and I didn't see very much except a few old men with young women, but some of the (admittedly lurid) stuff I've read...

[bobs12]

Ahhh, I see... Weird- I read a couple of years ago about rich Thai families wanting their daughters to have children to Scotsmen. I'm not sure if marriage was part of the deal. They reckoned it was the ideal blood mix for breeding 'superkids'. Can't pretend offering my services never crossed my mind.

[carlos-england]

"Well, I'm not commanding anyone, I'm just offering advice in a situation where, If I recall, advice was requested. I've met people before who look for the advice they want to hear, and reject anything that doesn't fit their criteria for an acceptable rsponse. I've done that myself, but such a hostile reaction is just hilarious."

Loved your essay Bob, a load of whiny self justification and an absurd
attempt at moral superiority, "the hostile response" was due to
your childish and immature name calling, as for teaching in Russia
been doing it while you were getting your head shoved down the
toilet at school.

My point is that women are all the same, all over the
world, might come in different colours and sizes and
have a slightly different outlook on life but get into a
relatiosnhip with one and it is basically the same from
one country to the next. Whereas you rely on tired racist
stereotype and cliche.

The fact that you have had only ONE relationship with a
non-Russian female says to me you have not much of a
clue of the opposite sex and I suggest you meet a few more
women from different backgrounds, spend time with them,
LISTEN to them and you will see that I'm right.

And I did read to the bottom of your essay and I will give you
some advice, grow up and take some responsibility, be a
man, why do you need a guarantee? it might not work either
there or back here in the UK, do you need to cement a relationship
with a guarantee then you are in the shit, nothing in life comes
with a guarantee, if you love her then take on all the responsibility
that goes with the relationship.

[bobs12]

Again, I'll let that pile of steaming tripe speak for itself.

Nobody called you names, weirdo. I look forward to the release of your FMC.

[Communist Smurf]

Aaah! The anonymity of the internet. It has truly made us a society that communicates! Anyone feels free to say anything to anyone else at anytime about any subject. It is good that we feel free to communicate. However, there is a problem with this new anonymous communication - it is without accountability - which is a bad thing.

Now I don't know, but I would be willing to bet that you wouldn't say the same thing to bobs12 in say, a bar, that you posted here. Why? Geographically Induced Consequences. What are GIC, you ask? Good question. The rule of GIC states that if you are geographically close enough for the object of your derision to lay his hands on you, there are consequences. GIC is not a cyber concept, it is real world. Example you say? Thought you would never ask.

Now, let's say you and your life partners are in a straight bar somewhere in California. You've got your little skirt on and you are getting ALL the attention. I'm sitting at the bar, talking to a friend about women in Russia and all the experiences we've shared. It is my bar, I go there everyday to talk to friends for an hour or two. You interrupt the conversation and ask a question, a good one in your mind. Not after long, by now mildly annoyed, you decide to give your unwanted opinion but you don't like my follow on responses, so you call me a *beep*. There are immediate and significant GIC. Normally the GIC come in the form of BAM - Boot/Ass Meet.

Can you imagine yourself doing that? Probably not. Because of GIC, you would have, albeit subconsciously, conducted a mental cost-benefit analysis at the speed of light and come to the obvious conclusion that this man, sitting at the bar talking to his friend, is not one to be trifled with. The cost would be too horrible to contemplate. The benefit of your life partners thinking you are funny or cool is so miniscule as to not even register. Every cell in your being is screaming DO NOT *beep* WITH THIS MAN! GIC, in another form, is know as the fight/flight mechanism.

In summary, you can get away with statements on the internet with only verbal consequences to suffer. It is a much different matter in the real world. A true man would remember that and not abuse the anonymity and relative safety afforded him by the internet to call a man who is obviously his better a *beep* in a vain attempt to show how witty he is.

If you ever come to Russia, please look me up so that I might explain GIC in more detail.

CS

[zaneth]

It is precisely the nice guys coming to Russia to find a nice girl who need the warnings. Warnings, not that they will meet up with a gold-digging prostitute in disguise, but of some difficulties that arise after they meet up with the nice girl with a nice family.

Funny about the GIC. On the internet people are actually rewarded for rude behavior. Funny world, eh?

[bobs12]

[bobs12]

[carlos-england]

bleh

[rogan]

One small point you made Bobs - feeling sorry for those women who practically sell themselves to foreign men - -

My thought are ambivalent - some days it disgusts me - and some days I admire the personal courage they display committing themselves to some fat old person for at least 2 years - other days I feel sorry that their lives are so bad and full of problems in Russia that they are forced to take such extreme measures to escape.

I identified with many of the points you make - can't see how the discussion degenerated into threats and partisanship, even though I
re-read most posts.

Personal relationships are tricky at all times in most situations.
Add cultural, financial, language, and possibly, religious differences and the poptential for desaster is multiplied.

I'm not sure that when, with whom and how, anyone lost their virginity, has anything to do with the difficulties of maintaining relationships.

What I have noticed is that ALL russian women (and perhaps ALL women) have problems (financial, personal, drunken ex etc etc) - add those, and any relationship starts to be difficult.

I won't take sides in the arguement, I'll just say that many colleagues have been involved in relationships and marriage with Russians. One couple are still happily married after 4 years.

[Communist Smurf]

[bobs12]

Oooh, what a hoot! Who's 'crying'? Hmm, it seems 'we' are the only ones here keeping our cool, and you are the one who has thrown a tantrum. Your argument has now descended below the threshold of silliness and into the realm of the kindergarten. I'm afraid that this time your post has nothing actually worth taking to pieces- it's in pieces already.

I will say one thing though- virginity? What does it have to do with that?! If it's of any help to you in understanding my stance, I went to Russia many moons and flings after popping the cherry.

I think that what we're looking at here is a 6'2" Welsh or English virgin with a chip on his shoulder, who believes that the only women desperate enough to deflower him are Russian peasants. He is insanely jealous of us because he can't come to Russia often enough to search for his ideal blind, deaf and mute peasant soulmate, hence the foot-stamping and the nonsense about 'do as I say, not as I do' being 'irksome' (where did you learn such a big word- in the Sun?) while we are all here basking in the land of milk and honey and fighting off stunners on the street.

Ah... wait... fighting... you're a boxer? Shame. No wonder you can't settle this in a civilised, intelligent manner. Not two brain cells left to rub together. That explains the VIF perfectly. Refusing to stay down. I'd love to see you fight- judging by your arguing skills, I'd guess the only way you'd win a fight is by biting and scratching. Is this you unleashing your FMC?

Were you seriously inviting us to beat the daylights out of you in order to settle this disagreement? Hilarious. What name do you/did you go under as a boxer? Can't find one iota of information using 'Carlos Hughes' as a search term. Surely such an accomplished sportsman would have at least one story to his name.

Well, I did find this- evidently you're not a boxer, but a boxing fan, and tried your hand at writing about it. Almost successfully, give or take a few spelling errors and atrocious style. Click here to see:

http://people.africadatabase.org/en/profile/12173.html

Is it yours? It has your unmistakable limping rythm, I'll be surprised if it's not.

If you really are a boxer, perhaps you could furnish us with some links to articles about your dazzling career?

If you're really the fraud I suspect you are, please seek professional help to stop your fantasising and delusions of grandeur.

Thank you for your name and addresses. I've copied and saved them. I'll think of something useful to do with them later. Would you care to leave your telephone number?

Enough attacking CS- he did what any real man would do in speaking his opinion of a fool like you.

I was going to leave this be, there's really no kudos to be earned in fighting a bantamweight like you, but this just made me chuckle: