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Loss of Face for speaking Chinese?
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JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:22 am Post subject:

m o n k, I would also add to your chart that if you get out of cities like Taipei you will spend less time fighting people to speak Mandarin. I have not lived in Tainan or Taizhong. Maybe someone can tell me about their experiences in those cities?

m o n k

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 28

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

Taiwanese are nothing compared to Germans. At least most Taiwanese are polite about speaking Mandarin with them. As opposed to a German I saw that refused to speak German to an American student who wanted to practice his German at a party. She said, "this is America, we must speak English".

Actually most Germans shy away from my in the US if I speak German to them.

That's funny about the German girl. I have to say that I agree with her opinion, though. If she came all the way to the US to learn/use English, then she has every right to want to avoid speaking German. It's funny because Germans are NOTORIOUS for speaking English to people who have come to Germany to learn/use German. They are also NOTORIOUS for ignoring requests to speak German.

The difference between Germany and Taiwan, in my experience, is the fact that, in Germany, the average white American can, without too much effort, avoid being recognized as an English speaker, and the people who refuse to speak German with Americans generally speak good English.

In Taiwan, a white foreigner cannot hide the fact that he is a foreigner, and most of the people who will avoid speaking Mandarin with white foreigners cannot speak English.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject:

Quote:

If she came all the way to the US to learn/use English, then she has every right to want to avoid speaking German.

I don't really agree. She can speak English everyday and almost all the time in the United States. She could give the poor chap ten minutes to speak German. Not to mention that if she had any sense that guy would have run out of things to say in a few minutes since he was at the intermediate level.

m o n k

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 28

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject:

JZer wrote:

I understand what you're saying, really. And you're right: in the US, the German girl probably had all day and night to use her English. I think I just feel for her position there because in Taiwan I had an ABC friend who would always tell me I should let people use me to practice English because I was their only opportunity to practice. My friend would say to me that I have "all day" to use Chinese, so ten minutes with a stranger in a book store shouldn't be an issue.

My ABC friend couldn't have been more wrong, though. She was overlooking the fact that she and I had VERY different experiences in Taiwan as far as language went. While HER day outside of teaching was filled with Mandarin conversations, mine was not. She didn't realize that it wasn't just once in a while that I was "used" to help someone practice English. Between that and being ignored/avoided, it was an every day occurance.

When I lived in Germany I had American friends who would get pissed off when Germans would use them for English practice. It rarely happened to me (I didn't sound German, but I guess I didn't look or sound American, either!), but my friends would complain about how every German thinks they are the only one trying to speak to you in English. The reality was that a ton of Germans were doing it to my friends, and it was really taking away from their ability to immerse themselves in the language.

So while I doubt that the German girl in the US encounters too many people wanting to speak German to her, I understand the idea of not wanting to speak your L1 in a foreign country.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject:

Quote:

When I lived in Germany I had American friends who would get pissed off when Germans would use them for English practice. It rarely happened to me (I didn't sound German, but I guess I didn't look or sound American, either!), but my friends would complain about how every German thinks they are the only one trying to speak to you in English. The reality was that a ton of Germans were doing it to my friends, and it was really taking away from their ability to immerse themselves in the language.

Interesting enough, when I studied in Bayreuth I used to hang out with Spanish guys and girls. Some people thought I was Spanish and never realized that I was American. Since there might have been five Americans on campus it was easy to blend in. Only one girl who knew I was American would speak English to me. She basically refused to speak German to me.

I do agree that if you are an English teacher in Taiwan, the amount of time you can practice Mandarin is limited but if you have some courage talk to be in Mandarin. I have dated girls that don't speak English. That gives me lots of Mandarin practice.

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I understand what you're saying, really. And you're right: in the US, the German girl probably had all day and night to use her English.

Add to the fact that I think she was studying at the university for free while the other students fees were covering for her tuition. So I believe that every student had the right to talk to her in German. She was use university resources. They should get something out of it.

m o n k

Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 28

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

JZer wrote:

What was the German girl's reason for being at the university? Was she an exchange student who came to learn/improve English? Was she sponsored by the German department as a kind of teaching assistant?

If she was there to learn English, I really have to say she wasn't off base in her refusal to speak German. Giving in to that German conversation with one person can quickly snowball into doing it with more and more people. I've found that oftentimes the language you use when you establish a relationship becomes the language you use throughout the relationship. After a while it seems weird to use another language. Perhaps she feared being the German girl that people can practice their German on?

That said, I can imagine that she was a bit blunt about it. German directness has a way of getting under our skin, you know? I'm completely aware of it, but I still get caught off guard from time to time when a German friend speaks so bluntly. Very Happy

JZer

Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:45 am Post subject:

Quote:

If she was there to learn English, I really have to say she wasn't off base in her refusal to speak German. Giving in to that German conversation with one person can quickly snowball into doing it with more and more people.

Of course everyone has the right to speak whatever language they want. Of course the other guy or I didn't have to speak English with her either.

The one good thing about speakin Korean, Mandarin, or German to locals is that you can see who your true friends are and not who is looking for an English friend.

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