Job Discussion Forums

[Nagoyaguy]

Moonie, thanks for the evasive answer. As I recall, the middle ages was the time when bleedings and leeching were considered medicine. However, that is irrelevant.

I agree that not everything can be measured. However, most things CAN. Also, most things can be tested and observed. Treatment outcomes, for example.

Why dont you add what you think, instead of merely sniping from the sidelines. If you have any relevant data or information, please share it.

As I said before, you can believe anything you want, that is fine with me. No arguments. However, when you start saying something is real or proven, then you have a higher standard to reach.

[some waygug-in]

How do you prove that love is "real"?

Can you see it?

Can you smell, touch or taste it?

Can you measure it? Categorize, analize or test its energy level?


How can you tell it exists?

Mostly by its effects. We can see how people act if love is present or how they act in its absence.

By the way, here's an article for you regarding new discoveries in science.

http://www.alternativescience.com/skeptics.htm

[ChinaMovieMagic]

Relevant movie metaphor:

Jodie Foster in CONTACT.

Quantitative Radio-Astronomer involved w/SETI Project.

Meet--falls in love w/"God-inspired" drop-out priest-thinker
She questions his paradigm
He questions her heart
"Can you measure love?" he asks.
On the SETI space ship journey, she hasan experience which blows her paradigm. Back in mass-televised Washington Capitol hearing, the skeptical Inquisitor demands to the woman-who-experienced-Numinous: "You admot you cannot prove what you say!!!Teh admit it!!! You are suffering from a DELUSION!!!"

"I cannot. I had AN EXPERIENCE!!!"

As Jimi Hendrix said it all those goode-years ago:
"Are you EXPERIENCED?."

RE: measuring (the emotional-physical state of feeling what-is-called) LOVE:
...though crude, there is technological research in the field. But it's limited by ROI mentality: "How are we going to make ROI profit on THAT?"
On the other hand, Technological Research is increasingly developed in those areas relating to the highly-profitable/taxpayer-funded Military-Industrial Complex.

[some waygug-in]

At last, the article I was looking for:

http://www.alternativescience.com/flame-proof.htm

This story is truly amazing, but even more amazing is the conclusion:



On the face of it, it was perfectly understandable that Ward's claims should be ignored since he was merely an amateur, with no scientific training and no track record in research.

ICI's own paints laboratory held an internal audit and what they found puts this claim in an entirely different light. For the audit showed that the most scientifically qualified of its research chemists had contributed to the least number of patents, and the fewer scientific qualifications the staff possessed, the greater the number of patents they had contributed to. In the most striking case of all, the person who had contributed to most ICI's patents had no scientific qualifications at all.

It seems that Maurice Ward's greatest strength as a researcher was that he had not been taught how to think.

In the light of examples such as this, the phrase 'Alternative Science' seems less a contradiction in terms and more a harbinger of something that professional science is likely to see more and more of in future.

[Nagoyaguy]

Some Guy;

I am not sure why you are talking about love, as the great Tina Turner would say, "what's love got to do with it?". If you are trying to say that some things are difficult to measure or quantify, I agree with you. However, that is not what is being discussed. This is why alternative treatments often work for difficult to quantify elements like pain. They work on the psychological level.

Treatments like acupuncture or theraputic touch often claim to have specific, measureable effects. In these cases, it IS possible to use conventional science in an attempt to detect whether or not they are doing what they claim.

An 11 year old child could design an experiment that showed the concept of an 'energy field' around the human body was nonsense. And did.

"Ki" or "chi", whatever you call it, has yet to be proven. Many claim to use it, but it cannot be seen or measured or detected. It claims to be an energy of some kind. If so, it is not comparable to emotions like love. It is more comparable to other energy forms, like electricity. Funny how all other forms of energy are measurable, but not ki.

When people make incredible claims, they are obligated to provide incredible evidence to back it up. If claims would invalidate large chunks of currently accepted scientific practice and knowledge, those claims need to be backed up with thorough documentation and rigorous testing. NOT by "well, my neighbour said it worked", or "my horse fell asleep".

[Nagoyaguy]

Here is a list of sicknesses that acupuncture claims to be able to cure:

Respiratory
Acute Sinusitis
Acute rhinitis
Common cold
Acute tonsillitis
Acute bronchitis
Bronchial asthma


Eye
Acute conjunctivitis (pinkeye)
Nearsightedness (in children)
Cataract (without complications)


Mouth
Toothache, post extraction pain
Gingivitis (gum disease)
Acute and chronic pharyngitis


Gastrointestinal Disorders
Hiccups
Gastritis
Gastric Hyperacidity
Ulcers
Colitis
Constipation
Diarrhea
Paralytic ileus


Neurological and Musculoskeletal Disorders
Headache and migraine
Trigeminal neuralgia
Paralysis following stroke
Meniere's disease
Neurogenic bladder dysfunction
Nocturnal enuresis (bed wetting)
Intercostal neuralgia (pain in the ribs)
Cervicobrachial syndrome (pain radiating from neck to arm)
Frozen shoulder or Tennis elbow
Sciatica
Low back pain
Osteoarthritis

from;http://www.holistic-online.com/Acupuncture/acp_healing_applications.htm


Many would be easily testable. And arent.

Next you'll be telling me you believe in psychic surgery, too!

[sojourner]

Some-waygug-in,

Many thanks for providing a link to the alternative science website - I'm surprised that I've never come across that site before !

I clicked on the book review section, where three books are reviewed. One of the reviews (on "Voodoo Science", by Robert Park) has something interesting to say about homeopathy.

Peter

[ChinaMovieMagic]

My DVD player-remote is stuck. It's in an A==B/A==B Repeat loop.
It's getting kind of repetitive...

[moonraven]

nagoyaguy:

YOU are not the one who decides what's real and what's not real--not on this forum, nor in any other venue. So don't come to me with claptrap about holding me to "higher standards". My health is absolutely my own business--and you have a lot of nerve suggesting otherwise!

You just aren't understanding what most of us are talking about. Instead of attacking us like a broken record, maybe you should do some studying in the areas we have mentioned?

One of the attributes of a good teacher is the ability to learn. Your mind appears to have snapped shut at--what's that kid's age you keep mentioning? Ah yes, 11.

[Nagoyaguy]

Moonie, perhaps you have been in the Land of the Siesta a little too long. If you recall, when you mentioned your health troubles, I said;

[some waygug-in]

Nagoyaguy

Thank you for your helpful list of conditions that some acupunturists might claim to be able help.

I don't think acupunture is 100% effective any more than you do, but I don't doubt that it is effective some of the time, with some patients on some conditions.

As weak as that sounds, it's still a good enough reason for people to try it if they want to.

I suppose I could come up with a list of conditions that pharmaceutical companies claim to help or cure (but don't). But unfortunately I am a bit pressed for time right now.

Here is one example:

http://my.webmd.com/content/article/31/1728_74633?src=Inktomi&condition=Home%20&%20Top%20Stories

But let me conclude by saying that there have been numerous documented cases of drug companies who falsify scientific tests in order to hasten a new product's entry into the market.

So where does that leave us? You say you want science to be the ultimate judge as to whether or not these things are effective. Well, fair enough, but science can be so easily subverted by corporate greed. How do we know if a drug companies "scientific tests" are in fact honest?
When drug companies have a huge financial interest in promoting their products and are able to alter or thwart government regulations in order to do make the claims that they do.
Here's another site you might be interested in:

http://www.pnc.com.au/~cafmr/online/research/index.html
Cheers

[Nagoyaguy]

I agree that quote unquote western medicine does not have all the answers, and also that pharmaceutical companies are greedy. Both points are irrelevant, however.

What I am talking about are exaggerated claims made by practitioners of things like TT or reiki or TCM that are based on unseen and unmeasured and unproven 'energy sources' like chi or ki. In martial arts, the same debate is raging, as to whether or not ki actually exists, or is merely a figment of imagination, or is a psychological condition as opposed to a physical phenomenon.

As I said, acupuncture claims a lot, but doesnt back it up. Also uses a lot of weasel words instead of specifics. Diagnoses and treatments also seem not to follow any pattern or methodology. Interestingly, it has been found that application of simple pressure at various acupuncture points often causes the same effects. Also, the use of fake acupuncture needles (that dont actually pierce the skin, but feel like they do) produced similar results. Both demonstrate that ki or chi may not have anything to do with the treatment, instead it may be physiological (manipulation of muscles and joints) or psychological (placebo effect of fake needles).

[moonraven]

Listen, nagoyaguy: What DOES really work in the way of medicine? Have you told us?

No, you haven't. All you have done is whine about alternative medicine. Did you buy a lot of stock in Pfizer, or what?

According to your criteria, nothing should be tried unless it has been certified--by WHOM, by the way?--as "factual".

Medicine is an art--facts have almost nothing to do with it. They never have. What has been called scientific in one era has been called superstition in another. That's just the way it goes. Why complain about it?

As for my rejecting your telling me how to manage my health, I repeat: my health is none of your business. Your telling me, hypocritically, that you're glad I am feeling better does NOT entitle you to start taking over my healthcare.

And again, I can't believe your nerve!

[Nagoyaguy]

What works in medicine?

hmmm, let's see.........

Just for argument's sake, I wonder how many homeopathic cures and acupuncture treatments are being distributed to the tsunami survivors these days. Or, are they being forced to use, shock of shocks, that nasty unproven western medicine?

Nothing works perfectly, but many things work in many cases. Antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, vaccines for diseases like polio, anti-inflammatories, to name a few.

Again, as usual, you are moving the goalposts and arguing about things I never said. Not surprising.

[moonraven]

Nagoyaguy wrote:

"Nothing works perfectly, but many things work in many cases. Antibiotics, painkillers, surgery, vaccines for diseases like polio, anti-inflammatories, to name a few."

Not much there, guy. Certainly nothing that would help ME out.

Antibiotics have been abused to the point that new, resistant strains of organisms have been created. Some of them have killed folks--ever hear of anaphylactic shock from penicillan?

Painkillers--such as? Pretty vague there. I see you are really scraping.

Surgery--western only?

Vaccines are really part of homeopathic medicine. Like cures like, remember? But because they were taken over by the alopaths, they are not administered under homeopathic controls, and the high doses have frequently resulted in deaths. (I personally was hospitalized twice from reactions to vaccines.)

Anti-inflammatories--how do you know they work? Are you taking a patient's word for it, or have studies actually shown the little buggers kicking inflammation out of the body? Couldn't this be another of your so-called placebo effects?

I don't have to move any goalposts. You can have all the playing field you want.

I repeat: on this thread, and on the rest of the threads in which you have participated, you have made no points. Zero.

I am afraid that you are a troll.