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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
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| There is however a very feasible alternative to working illegally so I am not so sure that this statement has any validity. |
clark.w.griswald, as far as I know there is no alternative to working illegally if you just want to come over to Taiwan for the summer to check it out. |
Actually there is, and it is a little known secret, but check it out if you like.
Provided that a school is legally entitled to employ foreigners then they can employ you for any period of time to teach here. It is often suggested that a contract term need to be for one year, and I have always concurred with this as I haven't wanted to open a can of worms. The fact is however that there is no stipulation in the legislation that contracts need be for 12 months, and I know of instances where schools have legally employed teachers for periods of a couple of months legally and with ARC's.
I have never brought this to anyones attention before now as although factual it isn't very helpful as almost no employers would want to employ a teacher for only a couple of months. I would hate for someone to take this fact out of the context that I have presented in and have a rash of teachers coming to Taiwan with the prospect of undertaking short term work legally, when in fact these positions would more than likely not be made available to them.
I don't even know if ALV can legally employ teachers. If they can, then they could theoretically secure work permits and ARC's for their teaching staff, however in practice there is no shortage of teachers who are willing to come here and work illegally on a visitors visa for tourism purposes, whether they know they are working illegally or not, and so I doubt that ALV would provide ARC's even if they could.
| JZer wrote: |
| I would agree that if you live in Taiwan permanently you should have some kind of legal work but if someone wants to come over for the summer and experience Taiwan, I see no problem with it. |
I don't have a problem with it either. It certainly doesn't bother me in the slightest if teachers work within these summer programs either legally or illegally.
I originally posted to point out that the work was more than likely going to be illegal for the OP - which it was.
I then expanded on this by saying that I think that it is morally wrong for people to come and work in Taiwan for a wage illegally (for any length of time) as they would not be paying taxes etc, and if caught could give the legal teachers a bad name. I then stated that it was the individuals own choice and I expressed a desire that if they choose to come here and work illegally then they keep their heads down and don't complain if the house of cards falls down around them.
| JZer wrote: |
| What is the point? You would face risk even if you were working legally. How about the newbies that are given an ARC from a company other than the one they are working for? It is technically illegal and they do not even know about it. |
That is exactly my point. We already have enough trouble with legitimate teachers securing 'legitimate' jobs and then running into trouble, so why would anyone want to suggest that working illegally is advisable based upon the premise that it is 'OK as nothing will happen anyway'. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been deported for the problem that you outline above, most likely because the authorities recognize who is in the wrong - the school not the teacher. Teachers who are working here illegally on a tourism visa would be unlikely to be caught, but if they were caught then they could expect to be deported for this. There is quite a distinction between the two and it doesn't seem that they should really be discussed in the same context.
I advise against people coming here with the intention of working illegally as they no doubt don't realize the repercussions of doing so, and the fact that they would be afforded probably no rights under the law, with the exception or certain human and civil rights that are afforded to everyone. I have never said that they can't come, I have merely suggested that they should think twice before coming. If people really want to come here and work illegally then they aren't reading my posts anyway. It is the people that may be brought here to work illegally unknowingly that I am posting to educate.
| JZer wrote: |
| Clark, I wonder what would happen if you showed up not knowing you were working illegally and your employer did not follow the contract. I wonder if you went to labor court what the Taiwanese government would do? |
Well you needn't worry any longer as there is an answer and the answer comes from precedence. There are numerous cases where foreigners were caught working illegally and were able to show that they were doing so unknowingly. These are not documented cases as by their very nature they never proceeded to any formality. In most cases the foreigners were let off, sometimes with a warning, sometimes without. If the breach by your employer was a breach of some basic human right or of a criminal nature, and you were willing to follow through with a complaint, then you could expect the offender to be penalized, most likely by way of a fine. You could not expect however for the authorities to adjudicate any civil complaints as they were based upon an illegal contract, undertaken by an illegal immigrant, with an employer who is more than likely not legal either.
It is wrong to suggest that the government or any other third party is remiss should this occur. Ultimately we all need to be responsible for our own actions. If a teacher chooses to come to Taiwan then they should do everything they can to research the employer, their location in Taiwan, and any relevant laws. If they choose not to do this, then they have only themselves to blame. This is where incorrect or misleading information can really make a difference. While I have always conceded that it is unlikely that illegal workers would get caught, it is not unheard of for the authorities here to round up and deport illegal teachers. They no doubt thought that they would never get caught, yet they did. If someone wants to take the risk then fine, but let's not suggest that there is no risk by suggesting that there is a 'miniscule to non' chance of being deported when there is a chance.
| JZer wrote: |
| I am sure that some people show up and do not even know they are working illegally. |
I am sure that there are too. Fortunately we have one less thanks to my intervention in this thread. BigJohn heard the arguments from both sides and made a decision not to come as he had too much to lose in the 'what if' situation. Others may read the thread and decide to come on over anyway. The thing is that you won't see a post here from BigJohn saying that he was deported. We may however see a post from one of the people who decided to come regardless.
| JZer wrote: |
| If you just read the ad on Dave's ESL cafe you would not even know that this job was illegal. |
| JZer wrote: |
| If we are going to talk about morality maybe Dave Sperling should also be held responsible since he is allowing someone to post a job offer that is misrepresentative of the truth. By this I mean that ALV advertises as if it is ok just to come to Taiwan without a work visa. |
Firstly, as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, but you seem to choose to forget in the effort to present your point of view, working at ALV is not illegal for foreigners. It is only illegal if you do not have the correct documentation to support your work there.
It is not up Dave to check this, but it is up to the employer to outline it clearly, and for the potential teacher to check it out thoroughly. If the employer doesn't point this out to teachers and brings them over to work illegally, then it is the employer that is at fault, not the person or company who hosts the advertisement. It is for this very reason that I have posted within this thread as users who are looking for work on this website can then come across here and find this thread. If they then chose to take the position, then they are doing so with all of the information that they need. So, in answer to your question, 'No, I have not complained to Dave about this'. He is doing nothing wrong. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| 1)there is little risk of detainment or deportation for those who come here for short term assignments like summer camps |
And where did I say or even suggest that there was a real risk of this occuring. I have never suggested this as it isn't the case. What is true is that if you are caught working illegally in such a position on a tourist visa then you can expect to be deported.
Well, originally you stated that there was no provision for this type of work and therefore it was illegal for foreigners:
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| There is no provision for short term work permits for short term teachers for things summer camps. This is known. So programs like summer camps are "technically" illegal. |
The you posted this:
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| 2)there is no mechanism for allowing MOST people to do these jobs legally (despite your attempt to show how APRC and working holiday--albeit for citizens of only two countries-- somehow count as a such). For most, there is no way to do so legally. So, they will technically be illegal for their very short stay. Big deal. |
So according to your original post, my reply was appropriate. Had you suggested in your original post that it would be illegal for MOST foreigners, then I wouldn't have needed to correct the misinformation.
Considering that there are only around six countries whose nationals qualify for legal work as English teachers in Taiwan, I don't know that I would be so quick to dismiss the fact that around 30% of these potentially qualify for working holidays.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| But, still, you are not above ignoring rules that make no sense. Insodoing, however, please do not throw stones while standing inside your glass house. |
I wasn't actually aware of the rules, and I accept the consequences of my breach of these rules. I took my time out and then came back. I did not intentionally breach, nor did I come here and complain about the implications of my breach. As I stated in an earlier post, provided people who work here illegally do so with their head down and don't complain if things don't work out, then so be it. This is not at all hypocritical.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| If someone wants to work here for a month or two, don't suggest they are morally deficient in some way for doing so without an ARC (that they couldn't get if they wanted). |
Now who is telling other what to say or not what to say? I don't believe that I have ever told anyone on this forum what to say, so maybe your earlier disparaging comments actually apply to you more than they do to me!
It is however not moral in my view for people to intentionally break the law as far as coming to Taiwan with the intention of working illegally. It is wrong in my opinion to work here but not pay taxes. I agree with your earlier comments that we each have our own opinions, and this is something that we obviously do not agree upon, but yes I do believe that it is morally wrong to intentionally work here illegally.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Further, kindly do not over exaggerate the risk or seriousness of the act, just because you do not agree with anyone not following the absolute letter of the law here. |
Please point out to me, by way of quoting my text, where exactly I have exaggerated the risks. I don't believe that I have but I welcome you to point this out clearly so that there is no confusion.
As far as the seriousness of the act, well that is not up to me, but up to the legislation of the Taiwan people. They afterall decided that illegal workers should be deported, and that is what they do. If I were to exaggerate then I would suggest that every teacher caught working illegally is incarcerated, but as we all know although this right is given to the authorities under the act, they very rarely exercise this with foreign teachers. They have no hesitation in enforcing this with our South East Asian counterparts however.
It is no exaggeration to state that if you are caught working illegally on a visitors visa for the purposes of tourism, that you can expect to be deported. This is exactly what I have been stating all along, and I would be interested to hear how this is an exaggeration of the truth.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Moreover, if someone wants to sign up for Chinese classes to extend their visitor, pick up some private classes and get themselves out of a bind they were put in by crooked boss, do not suggest this person is a criminal. |
And where again did I suggest that these people were criminals. I think that you are trying to put words into my mouth. Again, quoting me on this would be helpful in establishing the credibility of your claim.
Illegal, yes! Criminal, no! For me a criminal offence is one where there is clear intention and a clear victim. I don't see that this is the case for illegal workers, so while they are most certainly illegal, I don't believe that I ever called their acts criminal, but feel free to point this out if I am somehow mistaken.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Please refer to puiwaihin's post for a good summary of my position... |
What, that you like to sit on the fence? I don't need to read Puiwaihin's post for that. I have known that for a long time. You seem to be wearing the badge of being called 'Moderate' with some pleasure. I guess that this is just another area that we need to agree to disagree.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Now, I think we've made our points and the discussion has reached its end. We disagree on this. I'm alright with that. You somehow don't seem to be. Can we all just move on? |
Fine by me.
The tone of your initial posting in this thread was quite venemous towards me as I stated before. If you keep things as amicable toward me as I have been toward you then I don't see any reason that we can't move on. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Clark:
Learn to separate legality from morality and legality from common practice, defacto states of affairs and reality.
I have nothing against you personally, Clark; I don't know you. Do not misconstrue argument and debate as personal attack. Although, while we are on that subject, you dish it out pretty well. You usually cloak your barbs in long-winded, flowery language filled posts, though you are directly and unrelentingly insulting to users such as Aristotle.
I see little hypocracy in pointing out that you sometimes disregard rules, yourself, seeing as how your position is that we must always follow the letter of the law. I merely pointed out an instance of when you have disregarded rules that didn't suit you. I don't know about your personal life in Taiwan, but I will heavily suggest that, if you have been here as long as you state, you have been "illegal" yourself. This is Taiwan.
I'll state again, letter of the law and common practice are very different here. Consensus of opinion on this subject (though curiously it's only me you're targetting) from people who are here--or have been here-- is that the risks of deportation are quite low.There is really no practical means for people from most countries to obtain an ARC, or other means of legal residence, for the project. The government seems to know about this (in fact the program sends teachers to government-run facilities). Past teachers have faced no difficulties in their times here. The summer program in question also has a proven track record. Therefore, those who want to work for this company would face little REAL risk in doing so.
| Quote: |
| that you like sitting on the fence... |
Actually my position is quite clear and has been clearly elucidated by another user. I suspect you're just flaming me. But you're so far above this kind of conduct, aren't you?  |
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puiwaihin
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 91
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:53 am Post subject: sorry to butt in... |
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Hi- I know it's not my place to butt in here, but I'm doing it anyway because I think both of you (Steve and Clark) are clever posters whose information is very valuable to the community.
I think both of you understand each other's points perfectly well and they are both valid viewpoints. I think you would both agree with that assessment. This thread is continuing due to a mild case of mypositionislegitandiwantthelastworditis. We all get it at times and it makes us throw away a lot of time in what is, while not meaningless, but certainly insignificant argument.
I think both of you could help people like myself more with your experience in Taiwan if you didn't have to spend 15 minutes composing posts to rebutt one another every few hours.
I know this sounds sort of assuming, like someone putting their hand on your shoulder when it isn't their place to do so, but why not both of you salute each other and meet again later on the field of battle--- whether as allies or enemies of the moment? |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: |
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You got it. I was actually just going to ignore this topic after my last post. We've beaten the horse way beyond its mortal life. People who want to work for summer programs here have a good representation of the various viewpoints on the issue.
As a side note, Clark and I have agreed more often than we've disagreed on residency and employment matters. For those who want to stay more than a couple months, we usually concur that legal residence and employment is the way to go. It is not my intention to encourage people to come here to live under false pretences. The issue of temporary assignments, like summer programs are an exception and I hope that Clark and I can simply agree to disagree on it. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Puiwaihin you are right in that the concept of sites such as this one is to help others with information, and I think that Steve and myself do achieve this. This is a discussion board nonetheless, and I for one enjoy a good discussion such as this one. I realize that it may not be totally interesting for others, but I still think that some valid points come out of such discussion.
Now in my bout of mypositionislegitandiwantthelastworditis let me make another post.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| You usually cloak your barbs in long-winded, flowery language filled posts, though you are directly and unrelentingly insulting to users such as Aristotle. |
You have seen the history of my posts with Aristotle. I was initially respectful of him as another user of this forum, however through his continual posting of erroneous information and making of incorrect assumptions, sprinkled in among his offensive generalizations about the people of Taiwan, I soon lost any respect that I had for him.
As long as he keeps making questionable posts, I will continue questioning him. He could at any time actually answer a question, or even better support any claims he makes with a reliable source of some kind. This would give me no room for the type of flippant comments that I make regard in regard to his posts. And yes there have been others that I have been patient with at first but soon came to disrespect - the likes of Seeburn, EOD, and AKATDN spring to mind. From memory we held all of these people with the same disdain, and my comments to them are not all too different from your own, and in fact it was you who placed a poll on the site asking for Seeburn to be banned - if I recall correctly. I can't think of any other poster that I have held in disdain and therefore I don't see that it is my posts that are offensive, but the trolls as named above that come to this forum with a different agenda than the purpose of this board.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I see little hypocracy in pointing out that you sometimes disregard rules, yourself, seeing as how your position is that we must always follow the letter of the law. I merely pointed out an instance of when you have disregarded rules that didn't suit you. |
You seem to have missed the whole point.
You made the analogy between my return to this board and that of people who come to Taiwan with the intention of working illegally. Yes, I made the mistake of naming someone from the information that he had provided within other posts on this very forum. I didn't know that this was against the rules and although I didn't knowingly break the rules, I accepted my punishment as I should have made it my business to read the rules first. I should have known the rules and it is for this reason that I have never complained about the deactivication of my account.
If you are going to make an analogy between my position on this board and the current discussion, then I think that the fairest analogy is with the individuals who work in Taiwan not knowing that they are working illegally. Did they break the rules intentionally - no! Should they accept the repercussions of having not done adequate research - yes!
I didn't knowingly and intentionally break the rules and therefore your continued suggestion to the contrary is incorrect.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I don't know about your personal life in Taiwan, but I will heavily suggest that, if you have been here as long as you state, you have been "illegal" yourself. This is Taiwan. |
Actually I am no doubt one of the few long-term foreigners who has actually been illegal here the whole time. I didn't initiallly come here looking for work so when I made my initial visa application for a visitors visa for tourism purposes that is exactly what I was. I didn't actually look for work while I was here as I had no intention of staying, but the shortage of foreigners back then saw that I was offered an opportunity that was too good to pass by so I accepted a position. Back then you couldn't change the visitors visa into a resident one in the country so I took the paperwork back home on my return ticket and came back in again on my resident visa. I have been here pretty much ever since.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| I'll state again, letter of the law and common practice are very different here. Consensus of opinion on this subject (though curiously it's only me you're targetting) from people who are here--or have been here-- is that the risks of deportation are quite low. |
Come one Steve. I am not targetting you. The post I made on this very thread just two posts up and about this very same subject was made to another user of this forum.
I have not seen anyone state that the risks of deportation are high per se, myself included. You seem to be chasing your own tail. No one stated that the risks were high.
I merely stated that there is a risk and that if you are caught working illegally on a visitors visa for tourism purposes then you will most likely be deported. This is what the legislation states, and as personal experiences are so important to you, this is what personal anecdotes have shown to be true.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| There is really no practical means for people from most countries to obtain an ARC, or other means of legal residence, for the project. The government seems to know about this (in fact the program sends teachers to government-run facilities). Past teachers have faced no difficulties in their times here. The summer program in question also has a proven track record. Therefore, those who want to work for this company would face little REAL risk in doing so. |
Although I don't entirely agree with this synopsis, I won't raise any issue with any of this. None of the above changes anything that I have said about this subject however.
There are means to work in this program legally, yet I have conceded that the program itself may not want to pursue this option. That is their right, as is it the right of teachers to choose to work illegally. I don't agree that the program should bring teachers here to work illegally (whether the teachers are told that they will be working illegally or not), and I don't agree that the teachers should come if they know that they will be working illegally. There is a risk that teachers could be deported for working in the program and past experiences are no guarantee that this won't happen. At the end of the day none of this is of any consequence really as people will make their own decisions.
FOOTNOTE: Your post above came in during the time I took to compose my reply above - I agree with your suggestion to disagree. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Firstly, as I have pointed out on a number of occasions, but you seem to choose to forget in the effort to present your point of view, working at ALV is not illegal for foreigners. |
I am not trying to present my point of view. I was asking a question. I said that maybe it should be held responsible? (I apoligize that I forgot the question mark.I have since edited it.) I would guess that working at ALV is illegal for most foreigners that read these ads since the only people that can work for them are people that are Taiwanese citizens or are married to Taiwanese people. I worked at the camp last year. I do not think that they employed one foreigner legally. Furthermore we do not even know if they have legal standing to employ people. While there might be ways for people to work at ALV legally the fact is that they advertise on a board where they are likely to only get illegal workers. After you are accepted they even say to come over on a tourist visa. They are not trying to hire legal workers.
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| If the employer doesn't point this out to teachers and brings them over to work illegally, then it is the employer that is at fault, not the person or company who hosts the advertisement. |
What if the people brought it to Dave's attention that this company does not employ people legally? Would he have a moral obligation to not advertise for them if they did not stop their false advertising? I am not talking about the legality of him advertising for ALV because since we are dealing with an entity in a foreign country it would be almost impossible to take any legal action against anyone in this situation. I am not suggesting bringing it to his attention. I am just asking a theoretical question but if people actually got deported for working at ALV I would bring it to Dave�s attention since ALV is misrepresenting the situation. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| I would guess that working at ALV is illegal for most foreigners that read these ads since the only people that can work for them are people that are Taiwanese citizens or are married to Taiwanese people. I worked at the camp last year. I do not think that they employed one foreigner legally. Furthermore we do not even know if they have legal standing to employ people. While there might be ways for people to work at ALV legally the fact is that they advertise on a board where they are likely to only get illegal workers. After you are accepted they even say to come over on a tourist visa. They are not trying to hire legal workers. |
This is partially correct.
ALV do not hire legally. This may be by choice as they do not want to go through the paperwork, or or they may not have the choice as they may not be legally registered to employ foreigners. Either way, at the end of the day you can be pretty sure that if you work for ALV that you will be doing so illegally - no matter what they may tell you.
It isn't really correct to say that only Taiwan citizens or people married to Taiwan citizens can work there. You could legally work for ALV if:
a. You have an APRC (issued to people who have been here for a long time, or through marriage)
b. You have a JFRV (through marriage)
c. You are a naturalized resident of Taiwan (there are very few of these)
d. You are here on a working holiday (only available to a few countries who have reciprocal arrangements
e. You insist that ALV provide you with a work permit and an ARC (which they may or may not be able; or may or may not want to do)
f. You are a resident Taiwan returnee
The last category we haven't mentioned till now, but it does seem worth a mention as there are more and more people in this category. These are the Taiwanese people who have been living overseas for a period of time, but who are coming back to Taiwan in increasing numbers. As Taiwan residents they do not need a work permit nor ARC and therefore they can work anywhere they want.
So really, the only category of foreigner who probably wouldn't be able to work legally at ALV, is any foreign resident who needed to secure a work permit and ARC. Admittedly, the majority of users of this site fall into this category, but just because this position is not available to all of us does not mean that the advertiser should be prevented from advertising here, nor that Dave shouldn't be able to collect advertising fees from that company.
| JZer wrote: |
| What if the people brought it to Dave's attention that this company does not employ people legally? Would he have a moral obligation to not advertise for them if they did not stop their false advertising?...I am just asking a theoretical question but if people actually got deported for working at ALV I would bring it to Dave�s attention since ALV is misrepresenting the situation. |
I don't think that Dave has any moral responsibility in this issue at all.
I do think however that he would be helping a lot of people if he requested that ALV put a small note in all future advertisements regarding the fact that not all foreigners qualify for legal employment with them, and then listing either which categories of foreigner either do, or don't qualify for legal work there. I am inclined to think that if enough people contacted Dave regarding this issue then he may be willing to request this of the advertiser, but I doubt that he would insist upon it.
As an ex-employee of the company you are probably in the best position to raise these concerns so why don't you contact him at [email protected] and see what he has to say. |
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seaskyclay
Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:33 am Post subject: |
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I'm quite late to jump in to this discussion, but I'm also now considering going to ALV for the summer. I'm glad to hear the school has a good reputation, and I'm not too interested about the legality (or illegality) of the employment situation. (I've read the previous discussion/rants and feel I have more than enough info about all that.)
I am wondering if anyone who has live in Taiwan has any idea whether the pay package will get you by and give you something to go home with. I have no idea how far the Taiwan buck goes.
Also, the info says that for 20 days you get US$1300 for airfare reimb + salary. That reads as though $1300 is the entire payment. Am I reading this wrong? Do you think they'll pay airfare plus a salary of $1300? The airfare itself from central Europe appears to be much more than US$1300 round trip.
Any useful information would be appreciated. Thanks! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| seaskyclay wrote: |
| I'm glad to hear the school has a good reputation, and I'm not too interested about the legality (or illegality) of the employment situation. (I've read the previous discussion/rants and feel I have more than enough info about all that.) |
JZer - I think that this is a pretty good answer to the question that you raised as to whether Dave should host the advert for this type of position or not. When it comes down to it, people are going to respond to the ad and join the program regardless of what anyone says. If these individuals aren't concerned about this even after we have discussed the matter, then I don't think that Dave need be.
| seaskyclay wrote: |
| Also, the info says that for 20 days you get US$1300 for airfare reimb + salary. That reads as though $1300 is the entire payment. Am I reading this wrong? Do you think they'll pay airfare plus a salary of $1300? The airfare itself from central Europe appears to be much more than US$1300 round trip. |
Airfares are not standard here in Taiwan. I suspect that if they were including airfare then they would certainly have made a point of advertising this. If it wasn't stated in the recruitment ad, then I doubt that it will be offered. Maybe someone who has actually worked in the program will be able to clarify this? |
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DirtGuy
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 529
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi.
Can anyone point me to the ad for summer positions at ALV or where I can get some more info on this? I think I want to try working for them even if it is only for a week.
Just wanna have some fun, ya know!
Thanks. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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Ilanian
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Incredibly poor spelling and grammar on their website. I would think twice just based on that.  Pholosiply?? What is your pholosiply? I am actually finding it difficult to spell that poorly. |
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Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| seaskyclay wrote: |
I am wondering if anyone who has live in Taiwan has any idea whether the pay package will get you by and give you something to go home with. I have no idea how far the Taiwan buck goes.
Also, the info says that for 20 days you get US$1300 for airfare reimb + salary. That reads as though $1300 is the entire payment. Am I reading this wrong? Do you think they'll pay airfare plus a salary of $1300? The airfare itself from central Europe appears to be much more than US$1300 round trip. |
The airfare is part of the salary. I was only going to work a week so the salary would of barely covered the flight. Yes from Central Europe you would probably being paying most of the flight. Doesn't sound like a good vacation to me. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| JZer - I think that this is a pretty good answer to the question that you raised as to whether Dave should host the advert for this type of position or not. When it comes down to it, people are going to respond to the ad and join the program regardless of what anyone says. If these individuals aren't concerned about this even after we have discussed the matter, then I don't think that Dave need be. |
The point is that ALV is falsely advertising. If someone brought it to his attention I think that Dave would be morally obligated to do something about it. (you can't just turn your head when someone is doing something wrong) I would agree that Dave has no obligation to find out for himself if a company that advertises on his site is misrepresenting themselves. I think it is unfair to the uninformed that this company presents itself in a way that makes it sound that it is perfectly fine to come to Taiwan with a tourist visa. I have no problem with Dave advertising for ALV but if Taiwan would start deporting these people I could complain to Dave that he should force ALV to advertise the job correctly. |
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