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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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 Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:44 am Post subject: |
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31 wrote
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| As for him being obsessed with education I don`t know where you got that information but mean no disrespect but I don`t think it is true. He is in the private uni/school business because it makes money. If there was more money in second hand cars he would be in that instead. |
Two different people that I asked, both of whom I have the highest respect for and one of which has worked in education in Turkey for over 30 years told me this. And herein lies the crux of the difficulty we have - there is no apparent way to substantiate or reject claims that are based on opinion or individual experience - yours or mine.
whynotme said
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| i had a quick look at the url you recomended and � this shows me easily that state unis choose their students more carefully than the private unis according to OSS criteria |
I agree but that's the whole point, no? They are catering for the students who are not so 'clever'. In the same way that a good state university will have higher OSS requirements than a less respected state university. Or a more sought after subject will have a higher OSS requirement. Does that though mean that these subjects/students/universities are automatically crap? Do we all have to be first class students in order to deserve to go to university?
It is worth noting that only 391752 students entered university in Turkey last year - that is a staggeringly low number for a country with such a large and young population. Of these 348260 went to state university and another 29415 to private university. That means that these kids (in addition to being wealthy) should technically be just behind the 391752 in terms of academic qualifications.
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| if i had a private uni, i d do the same as Koc or Sabancı did....why start one step behind if your mission is to educate people....whynotme university:322 points not less maybe more |
Again would this not mean that state universities that have a lower OSS than say Bosphorous Uni also don�t want to educate. These universities are new and establishing themselves. OSS is a reflection of the demand for places in them. It might well be that they will eventually be like Koc and Sabanci, who I imagine also started off with low entry requirements. Probably if they don't improve they themselves will not succeed as a place of education or a business.
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| ...a bussinesman can easily run an oil company or a textile factor...we say bravo to Saros or Mehmet Emin Karamehmet (owner of Turkcell and Yapı Kredi ) but if we are talking about education and health he/she will be critised all the time because people do not want to see a commercialized school or a hospital... |
I agree totally that people do not want these things commercialised, but I think where I am in disagreement is regarding who is being criticised. It seems to me that what is at issue here is that as soon as the private universities were permitted to fill the gap between the number of young people wishing to go to university and the number of places the state was willing to fund then the principle of free education for all was sold out on by the state. In doing so the state permitted economic agents to enter into the picture and economic agents' motivation incorporates the notion of profit. However, again does this necessarily mean that the two aims - education and business - are mutually exclusive? One of the best universities in the UK, the LSE for example, has been floated on the stock exchange. If anything one might argue that eventually these will be the best universities because if they want to run a successful business they will have to offer a product that is worth the cost.
I personally am completely against the principle of private education. I believe that it is the state's responsibility to provide this along with other fundamental rights, such as health. However, that means my criticism is directed towards the state for failing to cater for all its young people who want to go to university.
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| lots of EFL teachers here are complaining about Kolejs and some private language schools....The staff working there do not believe that they are aiming to educate students how can i or the students going there believe this.... |
From my personal perspective I would respectfully disagree with this. I work part-time at a private university but my attitude to my teaching is exactly the same as when I taught at a state university in the UK. I am teacher irrespective of where I teach and have a responsibility to my students irrespective of who they are.
In my humble opinion it seems to me that what is galling and what results in the criticism of these universities is that (with the exception of scholarship students) it is only the wealthy that can access them. I too find that galling. It�s inequitable and unfair. However, I don�t think that necessarily mean these universities are crap. And I definitely don�t think that should mean blaming the kids who happen to have been born into a wealthy enough family to pay for them to attend a university that caters for a lower level of student.
But hell - like I said before. Ask me again in a year. 
And to end on the most important question
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Iman H,
who is the girl on the picture? |
Gorgeous isn't she, whynotme? She's a refugee from Sierra Leone and although no one I know personally, she reminds me so much of a spectacular little girl I knew very well, so I put her up there to remind me of her and because she�s sooo cute.
Is the little cutie in your avatar your son? |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Two different people that I asked, both of whom I have the highest
respect for and one of which has worked in education in Turkey for over
30 years told me this. And herein lies the crux of the difficulty we have - there is no apparent way to substantiate or reject claims that are based on opinion or individual experience - yours or mine.
It is just that Bedrettin is so despised.
whynotme said
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| i had a quick look at the url you recomended and � this shows me easily that state unis choose their students more carefully than the private unis according to OSS criteria |
I agree but that's the whole point, no? They are catering for the students who are not so 'clever'.
But so many of the students at the cat 1 unis are not even ''not clever.'' I had one of my lessons observed by an ELT lecturer from a UK university when I worked at that university. I was told to write a professional lesson plan by the Head of Prep/English which I did. In my section called ''class profile'' or ''anticipated problems'' I can`t remember which I put:
Utkan is in my opinion educationally subnormal and I can do nothing with him.
After the lesson the observer agreed that there was nothing you could do with Utkan but let him sit by himself in the corner. Utkan attended prep full time for two years and sat in the corner of the class and was never able to utter a single sentence in English. He ''passed'' prep and I would bet my right arm that he is by now the proud holder of a degree.
Needless to say that private uni was unable to do a deal with that UK uni.
In the same way that a good state university will have higher OSS requirements than a less respected state university. Or a more sought after subject will have a higher OSS requirement. Does that though mean that these subjects/students/universities are automatically crap? Do we all have to be first class students in order to deserve to go to university?
It is worth noting that only 391752 students entered university in Turkey last year - that is a staggeringly low number for a country with such a large and young population. Of these 348260 went to state university and another 29415 to private university. That means that these kids (in addition to being wealthy) should technically be just behind
No I strongly disagree with you on this. I would say that the majority of students who are ''just behind'' those that get into state unis are ordinary (not wealthy) and either retake the uni exam the following year or look for a job/take the civil service/ exam or whatever. Most private uni students are near the bottom of the cline and are NOT just behind the state school students.
the 391752 in terms of academic qualifications.
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| if i had a private uni, i d do the same as Koc or Sabancı did....why start one step behind if your mission is to educate people....whynotme university:322 points not less maybe more |
Again would this not mean that state universities that have a lower OSS than say Bosphorous Uni also don�t want to educate. These universities are new and establishing themselves. OSS is a reflection of the demand for places in them. It might well be that they will eventually be like Koc and Sabanci, who I imagine also started off with low entry requirements.
No, I`m sorry but Koc and Sabanci NEVER started off with low entry requirements. I would be grateful if Molly and whynotme would confirm this. Out of interest Bikent DID start off with very low requirements, particularly for postgraduate degrees.
Probably if they don't improve they themselves will not succeed as a place of education or a business. The crap private unis are doing well. They are expanding and moving to bigger campuses. With such a young population, expanding economy, compulsory military service etc. they are doing well.
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| ...a bussinesman can easily run an oil company or a textile factor...we say bravo to Saros or Mehmet Emin Karamehmet (owner of Turkcell and Yapı Kredi ) but if we are talking about education and health he/she will be critised all the time because people do not want to see a commercialized school or a hospital... |
I agree totally that people do not want these things commercialised, but I think where I am in disagreement is regarding who is being criticised. It seems to me that what is at issue here is that as soon as the private universities were permitted to fill the gap between the number of young people wishing to go to university and the number of places the state was willing to fund then the principle of free education for all was sold out on by the state.
To be fair the govt tightened up the requirements for opening a private uni in 99/2000 once it became aparent what was happening but of course many of the crap unis had already opened.
In doing so the state permitted economic agents to enter into the picture and economic agents' motivation incorporates the notion of profit. However, again does this necessarily mean that the two aims - education and business - are mutually exclusive? One of the best universities in the UK, the LSE for example, has been floated on the stock exchange. If anything one might argue that eventually these will be the best universities because if they want to run a successful business they will have to offer a product that is worth the cost.
Not necessarily-look at the private colleges.
I personally am completely against the principle of private education. I believe that it is the state's responsibility to provide this along with other fundamental rights, such as health. However, that means my criticism is directed towards the state for failing to cater for all its young people who want to go to university.
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| lots of EFL teachers here are complaining about Kolejs and some private language schools....The staff working there do not believe that they are aiming to educate students how can i or the students going there believe this.... |
From my personal perspective I would respectfully disagree with this. I work part-time at a private university but my attitude to my teaching is exactly the same as when I taught at a state university in the UK. I am teacher irrespective of where I teach and have a responsibility to my students irrespective of who they are.
Very interesting point but you get worn down in the end. The last 6 months that I worked at that private uni I gave up speaking at meetings and I during my time there turned a blind eye to marks being changed because I had no power to do anything about it.
In my humble opinion it seems to me that what is galling and what results in the criticism of these universities is that (with the exception of scholarship students) it is only the wealthy that can access them. I too find that galling. It�s inequitable and unfair. However, I don�t think that necessarily mean these universities are crap. And I definitely don�t think that should mean blaming the kids who happen to have been born into a wealthy enough family to pay for them to attend a university that caters for a lower level of student.
It galls me that the crap private unis are allowed to call themselves universities. I wouldn`t really mind if they were called something else. But it demeans the word university when a good university like Istanbul Technical University is called a university and Beykent is too.
But hell - like I said before. Ask me again in a year
I will. |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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you know I hate to agree with you, 31, but you are right, Koc and Sabanci started with high standards and have pretty much kept to them. Students who don't get out of hazirlik don't get to enter the university.
This is a fascinating discussion and I am glad to see some substance in it.
What makes a university not crap? How should Turkey go about making more university slots? Don't even the crap universities at least offer slots and most of the people that go to them get at least some education? My (uneducated) ex father-in-law used to say, "Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education." Are the graduates of these schools getting schooled in different ways? I think a lot go into the family business-- don't they learn about that as they grow up (not having grown up in a business family)? |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="molly farquharson"]you know I hate to agree with you, 31, but you are right, Koc and Sabanci started with high standards and have pretty much kept to them. Students who don't get out of hazirlik don't get to enter the university.
Thanks for that Molly. Koc and Sabanci had the investment as well as the vision/ethos/ideology or whatever you want to call it and did not open a university to make money. The first Head of English at Sabanci-Brian Gilroy gave a lecture that I attended and he said that Sakip Sabaci spent such a huge amount of money on the uni partly because he couldn`t take it with him. When others at the talk tried to be cynical and say that it helps his business and that Sabanci graduates would be more likely to get jobs at Sabanci cos, he quite convincingly denied it. I am sure it is the same for Koc.
Note the current Head of English is well known in ELT in Turkey and is a regular contributor to the English Language Teaching Journal (ELTJ) and has given plenaries at many conferences.
This is a fascinating discussion and I am glad to see some substance in it.
Yes. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Molly � yes exactly to all the questions you raise. This is why I don�t think these things are so black and white, and why, in my mind at least, I keep going back to the issues related to how this system fits in generally with education policy, its potential social impact, our role in �the system�, are we perpetuating it, are we not, etc., etc.
For me it swings between an intellectual, an ethical and an emotional debate. And for what its worth I really appreciate the input of those who have contributed to this thread as it�s pushed me to really think about these issues.
There is one thing I�d like to raise in terms of what one might describe as the emotional or human aspect to this discussion. I have two scholarship students in my class. One is very good, but the other, I believe, is exceptional. She is the sort of student that I might one day say about, with enormous pride, �I taught her�. She makes seminars fun. She makes the other students think. She makes teaching worthwhile. She is something I am pretty happy to be involved in. And her education is possible because of the private university system. BUT it is completely unfair that she is not, automatically, irrespective of her wealth, able to access exactly what she thinks is the best education for her. Instead, because by attending this university she gets a full scholarship, she is among less academically gifted students, who probably have little in common with her, she is not so intellectually challenged, she, more than likely, will have her degree dismissed in the future as being from a private university, and so on and so on. That I find galling. Yup, that sucks. However, again, that is related to the commoditisation of education by the state, which is being taken advantage of by privates, but which also means that a student who otherwise probably wouldn�t have gone to university gets to go.
That's the feel-good story, but I also have a far less successful student whose story is also relevant. He fits the typical picture. He�s obviously from a wealthy family, he is not in the least bit academic, his English is not bad but comparatively poor, he has repeated several years, and he is having pressure put on him because he keeps repeating, and so on and so forth. Although this might appear sentimental and I know this might be dismissed as learned helplessness, it has to be said he�s also a decent person, who, while by no means being a good student, I believe, within his capacity, is genuinely trying. However, if I�d just gone in thinking private uni equals crap � crap students, crap degrees, crap motivation, etc., I would never have given him a chance.
And in a way I think this is what I am trying to get at. I am fortunate in that, because I am teaching an elective, the students numbers are small and I am able to get to know each student individually and get beyond the, possibly/probably accurate, representation of the private university system here. And I think what I�ve learnt from my limited experience, so far, is that we might, potentially, being doing a disservice to individual students by tarring them all with the crap university, bought degree, etc., etc., brush.
I don�t know... Maybe?
Last edited by ImanH on Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Is the little cutie in your avatar your son? |
Yes he is..  but very naughty.
i did not say all the private unis are crap. i am talking about the 3rd and 4th catagories. Believe me these schools have no intension to teach that makes them crap
molly farquharson
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| Don't even the crap universities at least offer slots and most of the people that go to them get at least some education? |
molly i know you are just brainstorming with your sentence but i totaly disagree with the idea of "at least some teaching"...i think it is like signing a healt insurance contract but being given some of your rights....
i cant understand why people are so insistent on sending their children to universities altough there is no ray of hope for these studets like Utkan ...a private uni is 5 yaers and each year will cost them at least 6000 USD 6000*5= 30000USD which is enough to start a bussiness in Turkey.
summer is coming and in July lots of students are going to rush language schools for proficiency tests to pass the prep classes of private unis...you will see students at elementary level trying to pas the test .what they all say is they are going to be exploited 4 years and they can not stand and afford another hazırlık year....
if the private education is in the hands of businessman God help us. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| whynotme wrote: |
| i did not say all the private unis are crap. i am talking about the 3rd and 4th catagories. Believe me these schools have no intension to teach that makes them crap |
Well since I teach in one of those universities you put in the fourth category and I have EVERY intention of teaching I have to disagree with this.
I also know lots of good state university lecturers that come in to teach part time at these universities.
Again, I respectfully suggest that we are assuming that just because they are run by business folk that they necessarily offer a poor quality of education - it is, after all, often very well qualified individuals who do the teaching. |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
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i have friends working for these crap universities they are highly ambitious people who are so enthusiastic to teach but the system i think that makes it crap...
gimme the name of the uni you are working for and i ll change its category ( as i am the authority to categorise ) |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Lol
Which category do I get to be upgraded to - it would look too dodgy if I went into 1 too quickly.
PS Don't forget to tell me where to send the money for the upgrade.
Last edited by ImanH on Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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whynotme
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 728
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| as i said everything is commercialized, there is a cost of changing catagories but it is going to be free for you coz you taught me how to use an avatar... |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ImanH wrote: |
| 31 wrote: |
| It is just that Bedrettin is so despised. |
31, that is precisely what one of the people I referred to told me � to paraphrase him, �I hate him, but I have to admit the one good thing he is doing is in education�.
Is a crap uni a good thing? How? And as for Istek Vakfi-same.
Molly � yes exactly to all the questions you raise. This is why I don�t think these things are so black and white, and why, in my mind at least, I keep going back to the issues related to how this system fits in generally with education policy, its potential social impact, our role in �the system�, are we perpetuating it, are we not, etc., etc.
For me it swings between an intellectual, an ethical and an emotional debate. And for what its worth I really appreciate the input of those who have contributed to this thread as it�s pushed me to really think about these issues.
There is one thing I�d like to raise in terms of what one might describe as the emotional or human aspect to this discussion. I have two scholarship students in my class. One is very good, but the other, I believe, is exceptional. She is the sort of student that I might one day say about, with enormous pride, �I taught her�. She makes seminars fun. She makes the other students think. She makes teaching worthwhile. She is something I am pretty happy to be involved in. And her education is possible because of the private university system.
She would have got an education if she had gone to a state uni but fell for the glossy brochures, websites and Bedrettin`s marketing dept.
BUT it is completely unfair that she is not, automatically, irrespective of her wealth, able to access exactly what she thinks is the best education for her. Instead, because by attending this university she gets a full scholarship, she is among less academically gifted students, who probably have little in common with her, she is not so intellectually challenged, she, more than likely, will have her degree dismissed in the future as being from a private university, and so on and so on. That I find galling.
Exactly. How is she going to make a living with a worthless degree?
At least the rich kids have money to fall back on and a few may be able to get a master`s from an overseas uni that would at least help.
Yup, that sucks. However, again, that is related to the commoditisation of education by the state, which is being taken advantage of by privates, but which also means that a student who otherwise probably wouldn�t have gone to university gets to go.
But she may have gone to a state uni -even if it was not one of the better ones at least she would have a real degree.
That's the feel-good story, but I also have a far less successful student whose story is also relevant. He fits the typical picture. He�s obviously from a wealthy family, he is not in the least bit academic, his English is not bad but comparatively poor, he has repeated several years, and he is having pressure put on him because he keeps repeating, and so on and so forth. Although this might appear sentimental and I know this might be dismissed as learned helplessness, it has to be said he�s also a decent person, who, while by no means being a good student, I believe, within his capacity, is genuinely trying. However, if I�d just gone in thinking private uni equals crap � crap students, crap degrees, crap motivation, etc., I would never have given him a chance.
Yes but university isn`t for everyone. I can`t draw. No matter how much money I invested in art training I would still be crap at drawing. No doubt I could get into the art dept of a private uni and get a degree in art but I would still be crap at drawing. My brother left school at 16 and didn`t even bother to take the few CSEs (old UK exams-now GCSE) he was registered for. He did an apprenticehip in carpentry and now has his own small business and earns much more than me. If my parents had money do you think they should have sent him to a private uni?
And in a way I think this is what I am trying to get at. I am fortunate in that, because I am teaching an elective, the students numbers are small and I am able to get to know each student individually and get beyond the, possibly/probably accurate, representation of the private university system here. And I think what I�ve learnt from my limited experience, so far, is that we might, potentially, being doing a disservice to individual students by tarring them all with the crap university, bought degree, etc., etc., brush.
Call a spade a spade. Besides the students are never going to read this and I imagine we all treat our students with respect.
I don�t know... Maybe? |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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i cant understand why people are so insistent on sending their children to universities altough there is no ray of hope for these studets like Utkan ...a private uni is 5 yaers and each year will cost them at least 6000 USD 6000*5= 30000USD which is enough to start a bussiness in Turkey.
I know it mystifies me and I have had this conversation so many times. I remember a really weak student who exasperated us and one of the Turkish teachers finally asked her during a kind of heart to heart chat, what she was doing. She said:
''Sadece geliyorum''
I wonder if because many of their parents are ''self made'' and didn`t have the money or whatever to go to uni themselves, want their kids to go to uni regardless of their lack of ability. Is it a sign of prestige? I know the military service thing is an important motivator.
summer is coming and in July lots of students are going to rush language schools for proficiency tests to pass the prep classes of private unis...you will see students at elementary level trying to pas the test .what they all say is they are going to be exploited 4 years and they can not stand and afford another hazırlık year....
I know where I worked there was widespread bitterness from those that had to repeat prep and they always blamed the owner, saying he was trying to make more money out of them.
if the private education is in the hands of businessman God help us.[/quote]
True and in the future when you go to a doctor, dentist etc. for God`s sake check to make sure that they didn`t graduate from one of the crap private unis. |
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ImanH
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 214
Location: Istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Is a crap uni a good thing? |
Isn't the debate about whether or not they are crap?
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| She would have got an education if she had gone to a state uni but fell for the glossy brochures, websites and Bedrettin`s marketing dept. |
How can you know this, 31? I don't believe she did. She hasn't got the money to be able to go to state university. As it is she is also working part-time to support herself.
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| How is she going to make a living with a worthless degree? |
Three graduates from the same department have gone on to MA programmes - one at Bosphorous, one at METU and another one I cannot remember where, so some do think there might be some merit in these degrees.
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| Yes but university isn`t for everyone. |
I agree that university is not for everyone, but I also think that people should have a choice. It's the lack of choice I bemoan.
And, hell, if I have to put up with him (which really is not at all bad) in order that she gets to go, well that's fine by me. |
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31
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1797
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't the debate about whether or not they are crap?
Fair enough.
How can you know this, 31? I don't believe she did. She hasn't got the money to be able to go to state university.
Of course I can`t know for sure but for the following. Why would she choose a private over a state when state universities cost nothing. Ok there is a small registration fee and you have to pay for books and support yourself. But her Yeditepe scholarship doesn`t cover living expenses does it?
As it is she is also working part-time to support herself.
Wouldn`t that just about cover her living expenses in a dormitory at a state uni?
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| How is she going to make a living with a worthless degree? |
Three graduates from the same department have gone on to MA programmes - one at Bosphorous, one at METU and another one I cannot remember where, so some do think there might be some merit in these degrees.
But entry to an MA programme at a state university is dependant on taking an exam. Your place is dependant on your exam score and not on where you did your BA. I worked with a (uk) teacher who did an MA TEFL at Bosphorous. To get accepted all he needed was his UK degree certificate, transcripts, references and he had to take a test. There were only a certain no of places and the top x no of scores got the places. Of course being foreign he had to pay more for the course-1000 dollars.
As even the worst private uni is still legally a uni any graduate is free to take the test. Same goes for the reduced military service and the easier life as an officer.
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| Yes but university isn`t for everyone. |
I agree that university is not for everyone, but I also think that people should have a choice. It's the lack of choice I bemoan.
And, hell, if I have to put up with him (which really is not at all bad) in order that she gets to go, well that's fine by me.[/quote] |
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molly farquharson
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 839
Location: istanbul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Doesn't your student, Iman, have a choice? She could have gone to a public univ but she didn't. The boy probably had less choice than she did, because he is not smart, or at least not school smart. Surely Turks knows the score on the various universities and choose acordingly.
I taught at an American community college in Japan and since comm colls have open enrollment, some of the students had their education sort of "purchased" when their parents enrolled them, since they were not able to pass the big test to get into university. I taught a class for disappearos for a while-- I had 50 students on the list and only ever saw about 15 on any one day, and not always the same 15. However, some students who went there became very successful, transferring to American univs and doing well for themselves. I don't see disappearo classes here-- at least they come and take up space, so perhaps something is percolating in.
I would be very curious to hear students' views on this discussion, I because I think we have a very different view of it. And of course we have our own different views.
let me say this to stir things up-- those teachers with graduate degrees are much more likely to get hired at the good univs and not waste their time with the other ones. |
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