|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
| azarashi sushi wrote: |
| A note to all newbies... Do your research carefully and know what you are getting yourself into. |
That's why we have stickies and posts on these message boards--so people can do this "research" and know what they are getting themselves into beforehand. But it's a little bit difficult to take you up on this recommendation when such stickies and posts are removed for questionable reasons.
Checkmate. |
Another valuable research tool is called asking questions. If a search of this or any board comes up with nothing specific then you ask a general question. In the end there is no foolproof way of avoiding a dodgy school, I mean I ended up in a bad situation at a new school, there was no one that could tell me that it was crap because I was one of the first employees.
King takes queen then violates the black knight's horse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| There is no 100% foolproof way of avoiding a bad school. There are a number of good questions to ask the school and current teachersand searching this board and asking questions is a great start. Unfortunately, if negative postings are removed, then that eliminates a vital step in researching a school. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: Online Blacklist |
|
|
I have just received a note from a person on another forum who has informed me about an online site based in the US that offers members a forum for posting information about rogue schools.
The website is independent of customers and any connection to Japan and she has assured me that posts that criticise or talk about a particular school will not be deleted or edited, as the site belongs to a US media organisation. What do you think?
The Magazine is a US based "Women" type magazine, the advertisers online and offline are not job realated etc. I think teachers, job seekers need a safe haven.
Although the Category has just been posted, if you have any suggestions, I can give them to the Admin to add or change.
http://www.sheunlimited.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=631
Any ideas are welcome...
Kind Regards
Mari`e
The Magazine is She Unlimited Magazine. R&D are looking into a venue to possibly advertise, so if you have any ideas feel free... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
azarashi sushi
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 562
Location: Shinjuku
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
azarashi sushi wrote:
A note to all newbies... Do your research carefully and know what you are getting yourself into.
That's why we have stickies and posts on these message boards--so people can do this "research" and know what they are getting themselves into beforehand. But it's a little bit difficult to take you up on this recommendation when such stickies and posts are removed for questionable reasons.
|
By research, I meant asking questions to the prospective employer...
Questions such as:
Does the apartment have appliances?
Will I be paid in cash or bank transfer?
Can I open a bank account at the same bank to avoid bank fees?
Do you use text books? If so, which ones?
Do I plan my own lessons or follow a format?
How long are the lessons? For how long do I teach?
Is Japanese allowed in the classroom?
What are the hours of work?
What are the penalties for breaking the contract? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| azarashi sushi wrote: |
[What are the hours of work?
What are the penalties for breaking the contract? |
Azarashi
just in case you didn't know, two years ago this school had a clause in its contract saying that if teachers quit the contract the school would seek financial compensation for damages of one million yen from the teacher. Anyone who lives in Japan knows that this is totally illegal according to Japans labor laws and a person living overseas can not be expected to know this. I have not seen the Lingo contract but I expect it would have been buried in the fine print and easily overlooked by people applying.
In most cases the new teacher has absolutely no control over what text books one uses, the hours one works and how much you are paid. The issue here is that such information, good and bad is being systematically denied to people seeking information due to fear of bad publicity.
I might also add that many schools (such as Language House) while reasonable employers do not even have websites where you can learn about working conditions so asking employers on a public forum is a bit of a red herring.
You and I know that schools such as NOVA will actually exaggerate and gloss up what they tell new staff or job applicants so there is no guarantee that what an employer tells you, and what they put in the contract is actually the truth. People know whats in a NOVA contract the work hours, the salary, but they will still bitch and complain when they actually have to teach 6 classes a day, deal with incompetent trainers etc or come up against Japan's arcane work culture. Some things also can not be legislated. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Onigiri
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 103
Location: fly-over land
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
We actually don't know what Dave's motivation is for pulling negative posts about lingo school. It might be because Lingo is a paying customer or it could be for a number of other reasons. It really isn't fair to Dave to expect him to discuss his business decisions with complete strangers like us so we will never really know the why of all of it. One scenario (and it's complete speculation on my part) is that the owners of Lingo school is insane enough to send a letter to Dave threatening legal action. It's one thing to try to espouse journalistic freedom and Truth (with capital T) above all else, it is quite another to actually look at the piece of paper from an attorney that promises a lenthy and financially devastating legal battle for you and your family.
Whatever the reasons, it has to be quite a dilemma for Dave. On the one hand, being an owner of a website that post negative comments about businesses has to incur a hundred varieties of risk. On the other hand, becoming known for deleting negative comments about your subject matter causes your website to lose integrity with visiters trying to do research and your website becomes one large advertisement for Japanese language schools and those visitors will go elsewhere to find what they are looking for. It's like building a giant billboard and then shutting down the freeway that runs in front of it.
I feel for you, Dave. If it's any consolation, I'm glad it's you and not me having to make these decisions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Let's see if I have got this right:
1) The school receives negatives remarks from teachers.
2) The school pays the owner of this site to advertise.
3) The site censors negative posts pertaining to the school.
4) Site is based in Los Angeles.
Why would anyone expect anything else? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I asked Dave about why the Lingo threads were pulled and he said 'legal' reasons without further elaboration. The same thing that was said when the Smith School threads disappeared. (Smith made similar legal threats to the admin on ELTnews but the threads stayed up, though it became became heavily edited with personal insults taken out). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stosskraft
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 252
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think it is a very difficult decision for Dave. I am sure he is aware that by greedily accepting the money from Lingo, there is a good chance that some poor person is going to end up working for this company and get completed screw and he is partly responsible ( a small part, but a part no less) in that persons mistreatment.
By this site deleting all posts and stickies, it is taking a clear stance that schools who cheat, lie and mislead teachers is perfectly acceptable as long as they purchase some advertising.
If Lingo did threaten legal action, removing the sticky would have made sense, but leaving the forum topic would only be fair to the individuals who have actually suffered working for this shitty-establishment. I personally think, it would have been proper of Dave to explain to those why he was deleting anything to do with this school, instead of not replying to any of the posters on this forum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Personally, I think that the advertising revenue and the threat of legal action are not related. Does a school being an advertiser here give them any extra legal standing? I dont think so.
Plus, how can a school based in Japan initiate legal action against a website and its owner based in Los Angeles? Difficult if not impossible. Most lawyers would laugh. What possible action could there be? Running a message board is not the same as writing the damaging material yourself. It doesnt seem like a coincidence that the two schools that are protected are also advertisers.....
Just curious as to why it seems that only Smith's and Lingo School are let off the hook. It seems that other schools get slagged regularly, and there is no reaction. Just read a sticky that put the knife into a school called JES, for example. Makes me wonder....... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
| PeJust curious as to why it seems that only Smith's and Lingo School are let off the hook. It seems that other schools get slagged regularly, and there is no reaction. Just read a sticky that put the knife into a school called JES, for example. Makes me wonder....... |
Because there is no conflict of interest here. I put the JES one on as I was sent a contract by someone on Gaijinpot, and I thought it would be a good idea to start an eikaiwa blacklist of sorts. Only trouble is Im always looking over my shoulder wondering if these schools advertise anywhere on here. my life is too busy to get checking every job ad in the Job forums to see if they are posting there and that i might offend someone.
Not sure if you notice but Debito Arudo has big website with a blacklist of dozens of Japanese universities that have far worse working conditions but no one ever threatens him with a lawsuit and hes in japan with his own website. he tells the schools who complain to shape up their act or they stay on the blacklist. I wish it were the same here but it's not.
http://www.debito.org/blacklist.html
If the client doesnt complain Dave will leave well enough alone. If they say something he is compelled to do something about it. Much like I do when people complain about trolls on other forums. Out of sight, out of mind. So far this thread has run for a week and he hasnt said anything about it to me or about taking it down. Either hes ignoring it, hes out of town or hes paying lipservice to Tominaga's threats and letting it go.
PS I wont say the name but a university in Kyoto was the subject of a union action in Kyoto this week and made the six oclock news with about six TV stations hearing a press release about 3 year term limits for foreigners at universities. I didn't see the news but the school are squirming in their seats and several of them lied on national television about the school policies, saying they were quite legal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Because there is no conflict of interest here. |
I see. So, there is a conflict of interest because Mr. Sperling is;
a/ taking money as advertising revenue from schools
and
b/ at the same time, allowing the same schools to be badmouthed on his website's forum.
Is that accurate? Does he feel an obligation to erase criticism of schools that give him money?
I have seen Debito's site, it has lots of good information but is a bit tricky to navigate. If he is free from legal sanction, as a Japanese citizen living in Japan, then it is obvious that Mr. Sperling, as an American citizen living in the USA, is also in no legal danger whatsoever.
Were a non-advertising school to complain about their treatment on this forum, what would Mr. Sperling's reaction be?
IMHO, the legal argument seems to be a red herring. It boils down to the almighty dollar. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
b/ at the same time, allowing the same schools to be badmouthed on his website's forum.
Is that accurate? Does he feel an obligation to erase criticism of schools that give him money?
. |
That is pretty much the crux of the matter. You have people who were former employees of the school who have posted on the forums both in the Job Information Journal (some of which have been up for a year and its never bothered Dave before), various threads and the latest one, who want to tell people about their experiences so they can make their own minds up. Call it badmouthing, call it negative publicity, but its also free speech, which I understand in the US where this website is based, is protected under the Constitution. I guess in Japan its not as free as people would hope it would be.
NOVA gets badmouthed all the time, do you get the company calling up the admin and telling them to delete threads? A company like NOVA is oblivious to criticism unless the company is faced with a lawsuit by a union. Even then they will still go on believing their own press. they are like the 500 pound gorilla in the room. Its obvious that Lingo is perhaps sensitive to criticism but knows that what it actually practices is wrong. I get the same feeling with the JEC link. Lingo of course is a small school in a provincial city, maybe has trouble attracting teachers to work in Takamatsu and doesnt appreciate former teachers scaring away potential teachers who answer an ad.
Where possible I try not to post hearsay (the original poster sent me a PM in response to a former, now deleted thread), but rather personal testimonials and where possible backed up by factual and evidential proof. I think people are entitled to read about people's experiences, good and bad, be able to trust what they read and they can make their own minds up. People like Gordon have pointed out that not just one but several people have made similar complaints over several years so its not just a one-off thing and a consistent pattern of behavior, IMO. Several posters have invited the owner of Lingo school to come here and defend the schools policies but i cant see that happening any time soon and its easier to cut the negative criticism off at its knees, and 'turn the screws' as it were by complaining to the administrator and threatening a lawsuit, which may or may not be possible in practice. The mere threat of one may be enough to force him to act. Only he can know that, though. It is only business after all, and we are mere cogs in the wheel and interested bystanders.
As has been pointed out before, this is Daves website, he runs it as a profit-oriented cash-earning enterprise by attracting paying clients and its his decision and his alone as to what goes on and stays on his own website. Posters may not agree with his decision, which to many would go against the ideals of free speech, and I feel that its something people are going to have to live with, as its not likely that Dave will change his mind on principle.
Im not Dave, I dont know what he is thinking or what his rationale might be for the decisions he makes, though to most here it would seem that paying revenue comes before pleasing the masses. I leave that for you to decide. This thread has gone on for four pages of various posters debating the pros and cons, and the professional ethics involved and I dont see an easy or simple solution either way. It simply a case of the admin not biting that hand that feeds him, if you want to look at it in another way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Akula the shark
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 103
Location: NZ
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
My problem with these threads being pulled is simple.
Paying customers being skewered by previous teachers is one thing, but this school has had so much bad press, and Dave knows it.
When a school such as Lingo, which is more or less run by criminals from the sounds of things, repeatedly screw over unsuspecting teachers, then they should be exposed as what they are. Dave may earn a dollar or two by pandering to criminals like Tominaga, but he may want to ask himself whether or not it is worth it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Aside from the accusations against the school didn't the sticky post also allude to corruption or whatever by a magistrate. I mean that could tick off some very serious 'legal' people. So maybe Dave was taking more than just flak from an irate advertiser. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
