|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: Well |
 |
|
I think our opinions aren't actually very far off there. I'm fine with someone saying they don't like Taiwan. I'm fine with them saying Taiwan "sucks". Everyone should express all the specific opinions you want about things they dislike.
I do have a problem with someone dismissing an entire country and culture. As I said before, I think there was a latent expression of Taiwan's inferiority which was being expressed.
Perhaps this shouldn't be censored by the forums, and perhaps it should. What is certain is that we should all express that those opinions are wrong and not a reflection of life here in Taiwan.
I think we are both on our way towards expressing that together 
Last edited by SanChong on Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Steve said:
| Quote: |
| Because this is the internet and not print media. These boards are a completely different genre with a completely different purpose |
Just to continue our separate philisophical discussion: How is that a reason that it is OK to express those views here?
What's wrong is wrong. If things shouldn't be expressed in the newspaper, they shouldn't be expressed here.
Racist views aren't allowed in a newspaper because they are RACIST.
Throughout history, people have been persecuted because overtly racist views were allowed to be expressed openly and this resulted in so many minorities being opressed.
I'm not saying the discussion here will directly result in something so extreme, of course. But, I do think we all have a moral responsibility to fight against overt racism and prejudice when we encounter it in our daily lives.
That's find if you don't think Ghost's opinions fall under that category. I can respect and see that opinion. As others have said, much worse has been said in other forums. However, my opinion is that it was wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| What's wrong is wrong. |
Who decides that? You?
| Quote: |
| Racist views aren't allowed in a newspaper because they are RACIST. |
Please prove that Ghost is a racist. You're going too far with your disagreement of his opinions re: Taiwan.
| Quote: |
| But, I do think we all have a moral responsibility to fight against overt racism and prejudice when we encounter it in our daily lives. |
Sure. But that isn't happening here, so your point is not applicable.
Please don't try to characterize ghost as a racist. We've clearly seen no evidence of that. Throwing around the "racism" label is name calling. You certainly couldn't publish that kind of stuff in the NY Times or you'd be sued for libel and slander. You like Taiwan and he doesn't. That's all I see as an objective reader of both you and ghosts posts. [/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
Come on Steve, please don't take my comments out of context. I never said that Ghost's words were racist in and of themselves. I specifically said that I was continuing our "philosophical" side discussion about censorship in general. I was using the example of racism to prove a broader point: We, as a society, make choices everyday about what we allow to be said in public forums whether it be TV, newspapers or internet forums.
Ghost's point were certainly not directly racist and I never said they were.
I'm not sure if they fall under the category of somthing which should be censored. I know they would fall under that category in print media, television, etc. Apparently the mods of this forum don't agree. That's fine with me and I fully respect that.
Ghost's comments certainly did, however, dismiss Taiwan as inferior in an indirect and even direct way. To me, that falls under a very offensive category. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think I know why you asked me where I live now Steve.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Come on Steve, please don't take my comments out of context. |
I didn't take them out of context. You mention racism in your posts numerous times. This creates an association between what ghost wrote and racism. If not, why did you even mention it (numerous times). If you were, as you said, using it as a side point, it was completely irrelevent. It's best not to stray far from what we are discussing nor bring in extreme comparisons or examples, lest we inadvertently associate harmless opinions about a country with hate literature. Bringing up racism in this case was inappropriate.
| Quote: |
Ghost's point were certainly not directly racist and I never said they were.
I'm not sure if they fall under the category of somthing which should be censored. |
You're back pedalling now. You originally called for censorship of ghost's post, remember?
| Quote: |
| I know they would fall under that category in print media, television, etc. |
That would depend on the genre. If it was an opinion piece in an editorial, I doubt it. As a side note, much of what you wrote here, especially the attack claiming ghost gives expats a bad name, would not be publishable material either. Apples and oranges, though; you are experiencing generic interference-- lack of understanding concering a genre of comunication, it's rules and purpose. You are applying the rules and standards of a different genre on to this one. They don't fit this genre and they don't apply here.
| Quote: |
| Apparently the mods of this forum don't agree. |
That ought to give you pause to think about what is appropriate discourse in the genre of internet forums, freedom of expression, censorship and whether or not what ghost wrote here was really worthy of removal or just something you didn't agree with.
| Quote: |
| Ghost's comments certainly did, however, dismiss Taiwan as inferior in an indirect and even direct way. |
OK. I think I agree with you here. In a forum like this, though, it's best to counter comments like that with a post that shows, with lots evidence, why his opinion is misguided, ill informed or merely the opinion of an expat burned out on Taiwan.
It's interesting: we are mostly debating the rules of this genre of communication. We don't actually disagree when it comes to Taiwan in any signifigant way.
| Quote: |
| I think I know why you asked me where I live now Steve. Wink |
'Twas nice to meet you IRL.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
The expression 'mountain out of a mole hill' springs to mind.
If you're finding this forum a bit much SanChong you might want to try the forum at www.tealit.com. The mods delete anyone with an opinion over there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sounds interesting...
So, does anybody else have anything in the way of positive comments about teaching in Taiwan?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, Steve, I'm happy that we have come to some kind of compromise here. We both agree that Ghost was wrong in harsh opinions concerning Taiwan. Overall, it's a very positive place to live and work
I also think our discussion of rules and regulations with regard to Forums in general is quite interesting.
| Quote: |
| I didn't take them out of context. You mention racism in your posts numerous times. This creates an association between what ghost wrote and racism. If not, why did you even mention it (numerous times). If you were, as you said, using it as a side point, it was completely irrelevent. |
It's called an ANALOGY. I was making the point that some things are worth censoring. People use analogies all the time. I trust that people can make the distinction that I wasn't applying that to Ghost's case. I specifically made the point that direct "Racism" would be worth censoring. My overall point has been that many things ARE worth censoring from a public forum and we do it everday. My extreme example was used for just that reason: To make a point.
| Quote: |
| That would depend on the genre. If it was an opinion piece in an editorial, I doubt it. As a side note, much of what you wrote here, especially the attack claiming ghost gives expats a bad name, would not be publishable material either. Apples and oranges, though; you are experiencing generic interference-- lack of understanding concering a genre of comunication, it's rules and purpose. You are applying the rules and standards of a different genre on to this one. |
You must be kidding that what Ghost wrote would be publishable in an editorial of a major newspaper. No self respecting publication would ever dismiss an entire culture as "uninteresting" or all it's people as having "A limited view of the world"
As for the "genre of communication", print and on-line media are certainly comparable. Saying that something is different is NOT a justification. The real question to ask is WHY would this not be publishable in a major newspaper or said on the news: BECAUSE IT IS OFFENSIVE. Why doesn't that apply to the Internet as well? Saying that "It's just different" is not an argument that holds any water.
Finally, there is an important and significant difference between Ghost's opinion about Taiwan and my response: His comments dismiss an entire country and culture without any evidence. His was a sweeping, wide ranging, indefensible statement (MOST Taiwanese have limited views of the world- please provide EVIDENCE of how this applies to 12+ million people).
My opinion, rather, was very confined and specific. I said, "Comments like Ghost's give us (foreigners) a bad name". That is something for which I have evidence and backing. You might disagree with me. Fine, you are more than entitled to your opinion. I attacked none of his personal characteristics, but his statements. Were I to say that Ghost was a boring person with a simpleton's limited view of the world, would you be ok with that? I think not. Don't 12 million Taiwanese people deserve the same courtesy? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
J-kun
Joined: 13 Mar 2004
Posts: 43
Location: The Hell of Pachinko
|
| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just a thought on this whole censorship issue: I don't want to read posts that have been edited to remove anything that could possibly be offensive. I want to hear about people's experiences and their raw impressions of a place. But take them for what they are- one persons views based on their particular experience. I certainly don't believe that the Taiwanese are a bunch of dullards because Ghost said so.
It's good when people say provocative things on these forums. Gives us a chance to get all worked up and have a discussion. Maybe someone will even learn something, or change their mind about something. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
J-Kun, because of what you wrote, I went back and read through this long since finished debate again with a fresh set of eyes.
Really, this thread evolved into a wide ranging debate about free speech in general. Steve and I have our opinions and these same opinions and perspectives are being debated around the world today. In many countries, parliaments, the government and society as a whole are having wide ranging debates about what is acceptable as free speech.
It's really a difficult question and one which we can't answer in this forum. However, I do strongly believe that when it comes to outwardly prejudiced views, we can say as a society that it is NOT ok to say them. For example, newspapers, TV and such have guidelines for what is and is not acceptable on a daily basis. Is an internet forum different? Maybe.
We have laws throughout society that limit prejudiced opinions being expressed. There are countless examples of politicians, businessmen and others being fired for racist and offensive comments.
Just last year, the world dealt with the issue as a whole with the "Mohammed" cartoons. Many newspapers and websites chose not to allow them. Personally, I think those cartoons were entirely fine. They expressed a view about a certain SEGMENT of society: violence in religion. If the cartoons would have dismissed Islam and Muslims as a WHOLE, then I'd have a very different opinion. In fact, I think the vast majority of people would say that is an indefensible statement and shouldn't be allowed.
You might say, "free speech is free speech". Maybe anything and everything should be allowed. History shows us that is NOT true. In the US, people were allowed for years to show outward racism towards African Americans. That resulted in horrible, ingrained prejudice which is still very much alive. The same goes for Anti-Semitism throughout Europe and the world. We have definitely decided, as societies, that it is not ok to express outward racism in the media, etc. In our homes we have that freedom, but not in our work lives and many areas of our public lives.
That brings us back to Ghost's original comments. Do they fit under the above categories? It's debatable. I feel that they do. I think they expressed an outward sense of inferiority about Taiwanese people. His comments dismissed an entire country and culture as essentially inferior to him.
This entire thread, I think, is indicative of the problem with this forum in general. Let's say that yout don't agree with my perspective on censorship in this forum. Fine. But, do you AGREE WITH WHAT GHOST SAID!!!?? On a frequent basis, I read things on this forum that I think are rude and offensive towards Taiwan. Very few of us even respond to these comments. It's incredible to me that more people don't respond to comments like that. I think we fool ourselves into thinking that it's ok. It's NOT. It's like listening to a racist joke. Are they funny? Sure. Do they have some truth? Sometimes they do. But, those same jokes are sometimes the root of causing a bigger problem and wider prejudice. It's interesting where we draw the line. If Ghost had said the EXACT same thing about African Americans, for example, people would have jumped down his throat. We have been trained over the years (at least in the US) to feel that those kind of jokes are offensive and wrong. Then why is it ok to say the same things about Taiwanese people? It's not.
In theory, the members of this forum should be some of the most culturally sensitive and understanding people in the world. We live in a foreign country and should be more patient and understanding about differences in people and differences in approaches to the world. If we can't lead the way, what hope do people back home have? Instead, from my perspective, this forum is a hotbed of bitter intolerance and negativity. The good thing is that this forum is NOT a reflection of the way most foreigners in Taiwan feel. The vast majority of them are happy and really love Taiwan. Sure there are problems and cultural differences, but that's PART OF LIVING ABROAD!! Overall, most of us love this little island and appreciate what is a pretty interesting and comfortable life.
That was a long post!!! However, I'm always the guy jumping up and defending Taiwan, so If you have read my previous posts.... now you know my general perspective on this forum, and Taiwan in general. I know that most of you out there don't agree with what Ghost (and others) say. Don't be intimidated by a lot of the negative posters here. Let's drown out these kinds of opinions. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
|
| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ghost wrote:
| Quote: |
Living in Taiwan is boring, for most teachers.
It is not a country with an interesting culture, and it is difficult, if impossible, to have an interesting conversation with most Taiwanese - most of whom have a very limited view of the world.So think hard about coming here before you do. There are much more pleasant locales to live and teach in the world. |
SanChong wrote:
| Quote: |
| The people are incredibly friendly, the food is good and Taiwan has a VERY interesting culture. |
A well balanced forum I would have thought, people on both sides of the fence. That's what it's all about. However the downside is that both of you are generalizing. The truth is some Taiwanese are friendly nice people, some are not, some of the food is good, some is awful, bits of the culture are interesting, bits of it are not interesting. Also it shows some teachers had a good experience, some not so good. This would be the conclusion of any newcomer reading this forum, as it should be.
SanChong wrote:
| Quote: |
| Also, to the moderaters: Why are blatantly offensive (and even prejudiced/racist) opinions like the one Ghost expressed allowed to be posted? Completely dismissing an entire country and culture seems to be the extreme OPPOSITE of the reason Dave's ESL Cafe exists. |
His posts are not removed because, like the majority of the people on this forum, we do not agree with you. I understand from your posts that you seem to have been lucky in Taiwan and got yourself into a situation where you seem to be very happy and for that I say congratulations. But, that does not give you the right to shout down anyone who is not in your position and has not been as lucky. What planet are you on?
Moderator, I call upon you to remove all of SanChong's posts because he clearly does not understand the idea behind a 'discussion forum'.
In the words of Voltaire;
| Quote: |
| �I don�t agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.� |
Something you should consider SanChong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SanChong
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 335
|
| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| His posts are not removed because, like the majority of the people on this forum, we do not agree with you. |
Actually, there have been a lot of posts removed lately from this forum. You may not have noticed it, but it has been happening OFTEN. A lot of them were for just the reasons I have expressed: One sided offensive views about Taiwan. So, the moderators do agree with my general opinion on this matter, if not with this specific case.
| Quote: |
| But, that does not give you the right to shout down anyone who is not in your position and has not been as lucky. What planet are you on? |
That's a silly comment and I've never said anything like that. You are taking what I said completely out of context.
If this wasn't clear already: Of course people can complain all they want. I've never said anything like that. What I am saying is that it's not right to dismiss an entire country as "uneducated, boring, stupid, hillbillies". All these words (and a lot more) have been used in this forum in reference to Taiwan. A lot of these posts have been deleted lately, as many have noticed.
I complain as much as the next person. There is a big difference between saying, "I hate my situation, at my school where my boss is a dishonest, lying b*stard" and saying "All of Taiwan sucks, the culture is stupid and uninteresting and the people are boring and have no personality and are dumb" These things have all been said on this forum, at some point. Ghost didn't go quite that far of course, which is probably why it wasn't deleted like many other such posts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
|
| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
My Quote:
| Quote: |
| His posts are not removed because, like the majority of the people on this forum, we do not agree with you. |
SanChong:
Actually, there have been a lot of posts removed lately from this forum. You may not have noticed it, but it has been happening OFTEN. A lot of them were for just the reasons I have expressed: One sided offensive views about Taiwan. So, the moderators do agree with my general opinion on this matter, if not with this specific case. |
I used the word 'his', we are refering to your call to have Ghost's post remove. I was not generalising, I was specifically talking about Ghost as you well know.
I don't think anyone would defend Miyazaki, whose posts would likely me deleted without you running to the moderator. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trukesehammer
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
Posts: 168
Location: The Vatican
|
| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Taiwan |
|
|
| ghost wrote: |
It is not a country with an interesting culture, and it is difficult, if impossible, to have an interesting conversation with most Taiwanese - most of whom have a very limited view of the world.
Ghost in Taichung, Taiwan. |
Not a country with an interesting culture? Dude, you need to get out more! There is so much to see and do and learn here. But then, maybe it's all just a matter of taste. I always say the same thing about Amerikkka.
Very limited view of the world? Again, I always say the same thing about Amerikkkans. You have heard the joke, right?
Q: What do you call a person who can speak three languages?
A: Trilingual.
Q: What about two languages?
A: Bilingual.
Q: And just one language?
A: AMERICAN!
Be that as it may, Ghost does have a point about the "very limited view of the world." My poor students (I teach at a university)! Most of them have never even been to the far side of the island, let alone a foreign country! I've already lost count of how many times I've driven around this little island.
Then again, I used to live on an even dinkier island, where the saying was, REALITY ENDS AT THE REEF!
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
