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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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 Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
| I am tired of hearing that I will probably not get back ANY of the 3 months deposit for my apartment that is currently coming out of my salary. For NO reason whatsoever! |
I think you are confusing your deposit with your key money. You should get back all or most of your deposit. You will not get back your key money. Go for an apartment that asks for 1 months key money not 3!
Key money isn't unique to Japan but it has been made illegal in most Western countries. The UK used to have such a system until it was outlawed in the 60's or 70's.
| nickelgoat wrote: |
| I refuse to pay the retirement of a Japanese salaryman! |
As far as I know you are entitled to claim back any money you pay into the national pension scheme. |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
I was the OP for this thread. The reason I asked about this had nothing to do with unions. What it has everything to do with is the extortionate rents and landlord practices in Japan, among other things.
Frankly, I think Korea is now the better deal IF you work at a university AND if you have a well-written, enforceable contract. Not having to pay for rent, and only for utilities, can leave one in a great position in Korea.
Not only are costs lower, you can get things now in Korea that you cannot get in Japan. Example - I was in Busan at Wal-Mart and they have western-sized boxes of cereal, with great variety, for about 3500 won. For about 350 yen, you get a teensy-tiny little box, less than half the content. Korea is really starting to understand the western consumer.
I am tired of hearing that I will probably not get back ANY of the 3 months deposit for my apartment that is currently coming out of my salary. For NO reason whatsoever! I was told I could not hang up anything, couldn`t have even the smallest pet, have to completely sort my trash, have to travel constantly to get to teaching sites. I knew I would have to pay rent when I came to Japan, but having to pay a deposit and not get it back no matter how clean I leave my apartment is extortion, and I refuse to pay the retirement of a Japanese salaryman! People just sit back and TAKE it here, in Korea they would probably have a nice loud protest against the landlord or rental agency itself. Because of this, I have high doubts I will have much saved at all when I leave Japan next March.
I am so tired of handing money to someone only to have them recoil as if my hands are the dirtiest things on earth. The money itself is what is dirty, whether handed over by a Japanese or not, but I have seen Japanese hand money to Japanese directly and no cringing, so what else can I assume but that they feel I am a dirty gaijin?
There are many wonderful things about Japan that I do love, so don`t think I am only negative. But compared to Korea, Japan isn`t that good. |
You're comparing Korea to Japan... and saying Korea is better?  Any problems you encounter in Japan exist in Korea and then some, and as a foreigner you have even less rights as I understand. I also gather that far more teachers bail from Korea cursing and swearing never to return, than Japan. In Korea your boss effectively owns your visa - how's that for insecurity? You mention people in Korea making loud protests over not getting deposits back -- yeah right... keep that dream alive.... You sound pretty optimistic now, but if you're like the vast majority of foreigners I've talked to who've lived in Korea, you're likely in for a rude awakening.
As for it being cheaper, actually Seoul was recently rated more expensive than Tokyo this year, plus you earn a lower average salary and have a lower standard of living. All the more reason to choose Japan.
And as for your example of Korea somehow being better because of Wal-mart... please. All the more reason to pity the Koreans, getting fat off of sh*t western bulk cereal, as if they give a damn about "understanding western consumers" anyway. At least Japan keeps its standards high enough not to buy into the American 'more=better' (even though you're just buying crap) myth. Bottom line, Japan's just so much better than Korea in every way... (yeah I know, just IMO, but I think it's right). |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Cshannon wrote: |
| nickelgoat wrote: |
I was the OP for this thread. The reason I asked about this had nothing to do with unions. What it has everything to do with is the extortionate rents and landlord practices in Japan, among other things.
Frankly, I think Korea is now the better deal IF you work at a university AND if you have a well-written, enforceable contract. Not having to pay for rent, and only for utilities, can leave one in a great position in Korea.
Not only are costs lower, you can get things now in Korea that you cannot get in Japan. Example - I was in Busan at Wal-Mart and they have western-sized boxes of cereal, with great variety, for about 3500 won. For about 350 yen, you get a teensy-tiny little box, less than half the content. Korea is really starting to understand the western consumer.
I am tired of hearing that I will probably not get back ANY of the 3 months deposit for my apartment that is currently coming out of my salary. For NO reason whatsoever! I was told I could not hang up anything, couldn`t have even the smallest pet, have to completely sort my trash, have to travel constantly to get to teaching sites. I knew I would have to pay rent when I came to Japan, but having to pay a deposit and not get it back no matter how clean I leave my apartment is extortion, and I refuse to pay the retirement of a Japanese salaryman! People just sit back and TAKE it here, in Korea they would probably have a nice loud protest against the landlord or rental agency itself. Because of this, I have high doubts I will have much saved at all when I leave Japan next March.
I am so tired of handing money to someone only to have them recoil as if my hands are the dirtiest things on earth. The money itself is what is dirty, whether handed over by a Japanese or not, but I have seen Japanese hand money to Japanese directly and no cringing, so what else can I assume but that they feel I am a dirty gaijin?
There are many wonderful things about Japan that I do love, so don`t think I am only negative. But compared to Korea, Japan isn`t that good. |
You're comparing Korea to Japan... and saying Korea is better? Any problems you encounter in Japan exist in Korea and then some, and as a foreigner you have even less rights as I understand. I also gather that far more teachers bail from Korea cursing and swearing never to return, than Japan. In Korea your boss effectively owns your visa - how's that for insecurity? You mention people in Korea making loud protests over not getting deposits back -- yeah right... keep that dream alive.... You sound pretty optimistic now, but if you're like the vast majority of foreigners I've talked to who've lived in Korea, you're likely in for a rude awakening.
As for it being cheaper, actually Seoul was recently rated more expensive than Tokyo this year, plus you earn a lower average salary and have a lower standard of living. All the more reason to choose Japan.
And as for your example of Korea somehow being better because of Wal-mart... please. All the more reason to pity the Koreans, getting fat off of sh*t western bulk cereal, as if they give a damn about "understanding western consumers" anyway. At least Japan keeps its standards high enough not to buy into the American 'more=better' (even though you're just buying crap) myth. Bottom line, Japan's just so much better than Korea in every way... (yeah I know, just IMO, but I think it's right). |
This post is to both posters I quoted here, nickelgoat and CShannon.
Let me clear up some inconsistencies here. (BTW, this is long, and I am not going to check it for spelling mistakes...  )
First, WALMART was bought out by Shinsegae. It is no longer the Walmart you have come to know and love (or hate). It is no different than E-mart or any other Korean store now.
Second, Korea and Japan are about the same in the 'more=better' mentality. Don't think they are too different.
Third, Seoul is still cheaper than Japan. And much easier to get into the cheaper lifestyle too. It takes longer to figure out how to live cheaper in Japan. Add in the free apartment, airfare and 1 month bonus (severance) after 12 months, you can save more in Korea. I am not talking about a lot more, but there is no way Japan is cheaper. I don't know what you mean by lower standard of living either. Korea has practically everything Japan has, though tends to be a little more boring. I don't think you really have enough info to be making the assessment you did. You can save more living the same lifestyle as you did in Japan. Also, this is based on a salary of 280000 yen (not the 250000) either. Also, for the standard of living, your apartment will probably be bigger here too.
Fourth, you are so right about the visa. In Japan, you own it. You don't really understand until you come work in Korea. It is a major thing. The ESL industry here is horrid and for most people just pure luck. It is also significantly more dishonest than Japan. No two ways around this fact. If they would just do the same as Japan the industry would clean itself up. This is in general, you can find just as good a job here as in Japan.
Fifth, the foreigner resentment is about the same here as it is in Japan. But Koreans are much more blunt about it. In general (I can't possibly say as it would take decades to fully understand two different cultures) you won't find Japan or Korea that much different underneath. But as Koreans are more open and blunt, it will be more in your face here. It still doesnt' happen often. And the kindness I found in Japan is also here in Korea. I swear sometimes I just don't understand why they are doing things for (or helping) me and going through so much trouble just because I am a foriegner.
If you think Korea is starting to understand Western thinking, you are in for a surprise. Japan has had Western influence much longer and know much better, trust me. That statement is way off.
Also, a well written enforcable contract in either country will be the same, both good.
Personally, I have an awesome job here in Korea. I worked at AEON for 2 years back in 2002. If I absolutely had to choose, I would choose Japan. There is just a bit more to do and life seems more interesting there. But I choose Japan over Korea by very small factors. Both are good. |
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nickelgoat
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Where in the world is nickelgoat?
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by nickelgoat on Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:19 am Post subject: |
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movinaround: I won't try to disagree with you too much, seeing as you are living in Korea (therefore I grant you probably know more about it than me), but all I know is that I've never once met an ex-pat in Japan who'd taught before in Korea, who thought Korea was better - just the opposite.
Of course some things are totally subjective, so of course I don't mean literally that Japan is better in every single way, but in general it pretty much feels that way. Korea's not 3rd world or anything, and has some unique things to offer that Japan doesn't, but in a lot of ways it's kind of just a watered down version of Japan, only with more rude people, more rip-offs, more xenophobia (Japan's not a whole lot better in this regard), not as clean or as developed on the whole. My experience is limited, but it certainly seems life in Korea has more day-to-day hassles compared to Japan, and the rudeness of many (though not all) Koreans can get to anyone. I guess that's why a lot of foreigners don't stick around that long (often they come to Japan after). Though, to be fair, some people love Korea, so it all boils down to personal preference (as you can tell I prefer Japan).
All that aside, the main thing is the working conditions in Korea are often much worse, as you yourself point out. Having a boss who 'owns' your visa (ie your 'livelihood') is one of the worst ideas I ever heard of. It's for that reason more than anything that I have no plans of ever working in Korea, unless they change that. I'd much rather live in a poorer country and have flexible visa/employment options than ever put myself in a position like that. |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
| Cshannon, I have lived in Korea before - two separate occasions, totaling two years. Busan and the Seoul area. I went through almost every situation that has been discussed on the Korea boards, yet now I do find myself missing it. Probably because I have such good expat friends. |
Hey that's cool. If you like it, that's that. Just because I don't plan on going there doesn't mean you shouldn't. Like I said, some people love it there. To each his own. |
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movinaround
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Cshannon wrote: |
movinaround: I won't try to disagree with you too much, seeing as you are living in Korea (therefore I grant you probably know more about it than me), but all I know is that I've never once met an ex-pat in Japan who'd taught before in Korea, who thought Korea was better - just the opposite.
Of course some things are totally subjective, so of course I don't mean literally that Japan is better in every single way, but in general it pretty much feels that way. Korea's not 3rd world or anything, and has some unique things to offer that Japan doesn't, but in a lot of ways it's kind of just a watered down version of Japan, only with more rude people, more rip-offs, more xenophobia (Japan's not a whole lot better in this regard), not as clean or as developed on the whole. My experience is limited, but it certainly seems life in Korea has more day-to-day hassles compared to Japan, and the rudeness of many (though not all) Koreans can get to anyone. I guess that's why a lot of foreigners don't stick around that long (often they come to Japan after). Though, to be fair, some people love Korea, so it all boils down to personal preference (as you can tell I prefer Japan).
All that aside, the main thing is the working conditions in Korea are often much worse, as you yourself point out. Having a boss who 'owns' your visa (ie your 'livelihood') is one of the worst ideas I ever heard of. It's for that reason more than anything that I have no plans of ever working in Korea, unless they change that. I'd much rather live in a poorer country and have flexible visa/employment options than ever put myself in a position like that. |
As I said, I prefer Japan too. But not by much and a really good job in either country is more a factor than the country itself (between these two) If I could have the same job, I would also go to Japan. |
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