Job Discussion Forums

Outsida · Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:45 am Post subject:

Again, your poor reading skills betray you.

I was talking about the sensationalised ARTICLE. My conclusions are derived solely from the ARTICLE. I said in a previous post that going by the ARTICLE, I would classify them as whiners. I said until I knew more than what the ARTICLE told me, I would class them as wimps.

Do you understand now? Any more personal attacks? Any more trouble you want to stir up? If so, take it somewhere else. I have made my position clear. You are just trolling.

You may return to your hard-won DVD player, air-conditioner and king-size bed.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Out buddy, the last poster is just twisting your tail...

by the way..do you listen to the Ramones..and is that where your name came from...

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

It's sad to me that petty bickering draws attention from the more serious cases (in which wimpiness can be said to be irrelevant) like Darren Russell's. Instead of going back and forth uselessly maybe we could get a little snowball rolling (the kind that starts an avalance) that would eventually force the State Dept. to hire American citizens to serve its citizens in its embassies and to really serve their needs, not just offer lists of notarial services. Same for Brits and other nationals in their countries. I think getting help from your own embassy when you're in distress in a foreign country is a much bigger (and potentially constructive) issue than the one of who's macho and who's not. As I've already been denied services for a less life-threatening situation, it's not hard to see that it would be the same if I was unjustly thrown behind bars or worse.

Did any of you check out Russell's mom's website and the details?

Outsida · Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:19 am Post subject:

Heh, it's all good.

anyway, i've never listened to the Ramones, but my name is kind of derived from "waiguoren" - ever the outsider!

frank d · Joined: 07 Dec 2005 Posts: 155

rusmeister,

Twice now during this thread you've tried to be the voice of reason.

Thanks for your attempts to keep this discussion on track and our focus fixed on Darren Russell, and the inertia of the US Consulate in Guangzhou (and around the world).

Yes, a visit to Russell's mother's website is time well spent. It's compelling and persuasive. Thanks for making the weblink available to all of us!

I also suggest to FTs working in China (outside of Guangdong/Guangzhou) to ask their students (those above age eighteen) about their ideas regarding Guangzhou. I predict you'll hear some interesting ideas and/or stories...

shuize · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 1270

rusmeister · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 867 Location: Russia

Look, Shuize, you're cycling on the Welsh story, which may or may not be genuine drama. You may be right about them. Or not. Point is, there are a lot of (at least semi-) criminal dealings going on in the small schools. It stands to reason, particularly with the push in China to get ready for the Olympics, and the number of people that see a cash cow in "language schools". A lot of young and inexperienced teachers are going to get exploited. Few will reach a point described by the Welsh couple or pretty much confirmed in the Russell case. But some Americans abroad are going to get into serious trouble, sooner or later. The shift of mission of US Consulates from aiding US citizens abroad to placating foreign governments is a serious concern. Right now, with the exception of high-profile cases or those involving the wealthy and well-connected, the US Embassies and Consulates have a de facto no-involvement policy. Under most circumstances they will provide a list of services they will help you with (mostly notarial), and if it's not on the list, too bad. I have already experienced this myself (Thank God my life and safety were not on the line). The Embassies and Consulates are not responsible to US citizens. They answer only to the State Dept., and unless you can get some powerful people to shake trees at the State Dept, they are not going to be terribly responsive to your needs. (While there are some good-hearted people working at those Consulates, their hands are more tied by both legislation and State Dept directives than in the past.)

This is the real issue that could impact each of us, and is what we should really be talking about. Russell's mother is trying to do something about it. I suggest taking a look at that link I provided. http://whiterabbitsmom.org/

canuckophile · Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 19

Korea's the undisputed home of the discontented EFL teacher - and if you read our Korean discussion board, also the home of the rudest and most aggressive, often illogical posters. I was relieved to see that the China board is more sane, logical, and even more polite.

A friend mentioned these 2 cases to me but couldn't find the news links, so I went searching on Dave's ESL figuring they'd be discussed on the China board. From what I've read here about these 2 cases (the mysterious death and the race off to Beijing by taxi) actually tops our Korean tales of woe.

I've only vacationed in China twice (3 week trips each time) and really loved it, but I don't think anyone is being a weenie just to expect humane treatment (as with the Welsh couple), and if they were fearful as well, there may have been good reason. Our basic human gut reaction to things is often the correct one.

The only case in Korea remotely like this was some years back when 2 American girls fled their hogwon - one of the infamous Wonderland hogwons - and posted the whole thing on a blog site - Prisoner of Wonderland - that was eventually taken down because of Wonderland's legal action.

And I've never heard of any mysterious deaths in Korea. Shudder. I can see these 2 cases are ones that bear discussion.

shuize · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 1270

I remember "Prisoner of Wonderland" -- I think English Teacher X's comments summed it up best:

Tezcatlipoca · Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Posts: 1214

The American Consulate in Guangzhou is an absolute disgrace. Only about 10% of the signs are in English. I have never once seen an American official there and have been told every time I've visited and asked to speak to an American that it's not possible. They are quite obviously there to serve Chinese interests and no others.

I sought assistance in my dispute with my previous employer, only to be informed that not only is there nothing they can do (which I expected), but that they don't even keep records of schools that have been reported by Americans... which seems somewhat negligent. I'm not saying they should forbid Americans to work at schools... but if they see that an American is working at School X and that school has had problems in the past, a simple email warning the teacher that previous teachers have made complaints and to be vigilent doesn't seem out of the line.

Other posters have a strong point that Westerners do have a right to expect humane treatment. As many have pointed out, we are guests in China and should act respectfully... however, that is a two-way street... as one should not treat their guests as some Chinese schools treat their teachers. And yes, there is a criminal element that teachers should be aware of.

Actually, the first time I went there, I was sitting in line in the American Citizen Services section, only to have multiple Chinese citizens ushered in front of me in line.

Additionally, when I needed forms to apply for a Fiancee Visa for my fiancee, they provided forms that were more than two years out of date.

Shameful.

Finally, if any American citizen does need assistance, I strongly recommend that you right your represenative and senators. I did this, pointing out the flaws at the American Consulate (always keeping a respectful tone, of course) and both senators and my representative responded. Senator Mikulski of Maryland requested information from me, which was then used to speed up the visa application process for my fiancee (which had been slowed down tremendously due to miscommunication between the USCIS and DHS) from a two year process to less than a year.

shuize · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 1270

It's funny. In some circles I'd be labeled a "cultural imperialist" if I suggested the American way of doing business is the best.

But here, many (of the same people I think) want to cry that the U.S. government doesn't do enough in sorting through myriad language schools and contract disputes to takes sides and put its stamp of approval on those it likes. Alternatively, if such is not possible, they'd apparently be happy if the U.S. government put pressure on the Chinese government to tell private businesses how they should operate in China. Because, after all, the American way really is the best.

edited for moving paragraphs

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

How about the American Consulate working within a legal frame work to relieve problem between their citizens living abroad and the business of the Host countries...or how about a warning list reporting complaints by citizens against foreign employers ...heck for the taxes paid in the US..they could afford to provide legal help to seek redress...

canuckophile · Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 19

I haven't checked to see if it is still true, but BOTH the US and Canadian embassies in Korea used to post a special notice on th eir websites WARNING their nationals about teaching in Korea. In fact, as I recall, it was a strongly worded suggestion that you NOT teach in Korea because of all the problems, and pointing out that because you were employed in a FOREIGN country, the US or Cdn embassy could not, in fact, help you with employmen tproblems.

Maybe China needs this too.

And BTW to you negative posters on the Prisoner of Wonderland site (Korean ESL), as I remember one problem the 2 girls were confronting was sexual harassment - may be funny to you but can be quite frightening to people in a foreign country. Maybe it will happen to you sometime - we'll see if you're laughing then.

canuckophile · Joined: 04 Feb 2004 Posts: 19

... There's a BIG clue as to why Darren Russell didn't bolt when he should have. I just looked thru his mother's website (whiterabbit) and THE RECRUITER HELD HIS PASSPORT and refused to return it.

He of course should never have put up with this , but I suspect that's why he didn't leave. From more of the detail in her account, it's not clear if he might have been murdered by someone associated with the school or simply because the school moved him to a a really bad neighborhood hotel where he was robbed the first night and lost all his ID along with his money. Maybe someone came back to burgle/rob again and killed him

Granted he should have stayed with someone else but working 7 days a week, it's likely he didn't have time to make a ton of acquaintances - Chinese or otherwise.

Still, it's insane that the Chinese govt won't investigate this. There's a petition to sign at the mother's website that asks the American Congressmen to put pressure on the US State Dept to pressure the Chinese to investigate crimes against foreigners. Presumably MURDER would be high on the list.