Job Discussion Forums

[Lobster]

The problem with probationary periods is that you have come to a foreign country for a job, so you've packed all your stuff, let your apartment, quit your job, or sacrificed in whatever way to make the trip here. Now, if you were at home and the job didn't work out, you'd still have all your resources in place to fall back on. Not so here. Now you've been let go, and your contract stipulates that you are, at the least, responsible for your return flight, and at the most, paying back the hiring company for the initial flight, visa and medical costs, initial accommodation, and any other various charges. If class enrollment falls, a contract is lost, or some business scheme falls through, your "poor performance" will certainly be the reason for termination during the probation period. That's a scam.

RED

[Mister Al]

It might be something like a bit of a nightmare, if it all went pear shaped, as they say, but I really can't work out why a probationary period is a scam. Naturally, 'poor performance' used as an excuse to invoke the clause where it's not justified would be a scam but not why they are a scam per se. Just because someone happens to take a chance in travelling to another country such as China for a job should not mean that employers shouldn't have a 'fall back' if the FT turns out to be a complete muppet. If your not a muppet, and we are talking about accepting a job before you travel, then you would have seen the contract which would normally includesuch a clause- and perhaps even signed some kind of LOI before you left. If you've half a brain you prepare yourself for the fact things might not work out for either party.

Can Lobster or Prof or any poster come up with a good reason why it's not a good thing for employers to insert such a clause into a contract? Or indeed any alternatives. I am open to having my mind changed.

I'm not a big fan of employers either but if I was one I'd try to protect myself 'just in case..............'

BTW, Prof, bit of an attack on me in your last post. I only asked you to explain what you meant. Are you a to**er or something? (No need to answer that, just what I'm thinking, that's all)

[tofuman]

I might not use the word scam, but deliberate indifference in hiring is not uncommon here. Companies sometimes hire on speculation. They hope that after you show up, or before you show but after they advertise your soon appearing, they will get enough students to pay your expenses and make a profit.

They do not really have a job in place for you before they hire you. They hope that they can get enough students. If they don't, you will be sent packing, you will sustain the loss. Now if you were informed of this before you make the trip, thereby allowing you to decide on taking the chance or not, that would be another matter. But you are purposely not informed because they don't want to risk dissuading you.

Therein lies the SCAM. They are gambling with your time, money, effort, and not telling you beforehand.

I've been burned twice in deals like this, but my loss was relatively minor. In one case, simply because I played hardball from the beginning, I really suffered no loss at all, just aggravation.

Watch out for yourself because it is extremely unlikely that any Chinese national in the English business will be watching out for you.

[Lobster]

I am not opposed to having any type of clause in a contract as long as it's not vague or places one party at a disadvantage. After all, the parties can decide whether the terms are acceptable, and nobody is being forced into the agreement.

That having been said, there are still "standard" clauses that frequently appear, such as "the teacher will not offend local customs or habits" which have virtually no meaning and can be invoked by the employer at will; and not just during the probationary period.

There is nothing to protect a potential employer from an incompetent teacher except for the pre-hire screening process If the employer is hiring a recent philosophy grad with a 14-hour, on-line TESOL cert to work 20 hours per week at 5K per month, they shouldn't have any lotfy expectations.

So Al, it's not that the probationary clause in itself is a scam, but rather its manipulation on a regular basis that causes it to fall into that category. When the definitions of "poor performance", "arbitration", and "offense to local customs" are clearly stated (and I don't see that ever happening) and the FT has equal weight in legal proceedings here (ditto), such clauses will become an acceptable part of a standard contract.

Until that time, try to negotiate a contract with the following clause: The Teacher may leave the Company's employment without notice or penalty at any time should the Teacher be dissatisfied with the working conditions. If you're lucky, they won't understand it. If you're not, they'll never accept it. Why should we accept what amounts to the same concept?

RED

[No Moss]

Well, I'll all in favor of people making what they can. I think Prof is oversimpliflying the market by saying that any city can afford 250RMB per hour, but I don't have anything but common sense to back that up.

It depends on whether you're teaching privates or teaching in a school, it depends on the day and time of day, it depends on the number of people in the class, it depends on what the school is charging, it depends on how many hours you're teaching (per week) for that organization, it depends on whether the hours are blocked, it depends on how regularly they can provide you work, and it depends on whether you're teaching in a rich city or not. Whew! Then it depends on how good you are, and whether you are an asset to the school you teach for.

I generally agree that teachers shouldn't sell themselves short, although I would also advise that you assess yourself realistically. If you don't know grammar, if you can't spell very well, and if you can't explain pronunciation very well, don't consider yourself a good teacher. If you don't know the relationship between "f" and "v" in terms of pronunciation, don't fool yourself into thinking you're qualified to teach pronunciation. If you don't know what a separable phrasal verb is, don't think you know grammar.

You may be charismatic, you may be funny, but you're not really offering much substance. Yeah, I know, we're teaching oral English, but you need to bring some substance to the classroom to be worth bigger bucks.

Some teachers I have seen make the mistake of trying to communicate a complicated idea or ideas in class, which confuses the heck out of students. You're there to give them a chance to acquire a little bit of the language and give them a chance to practice what they do know. You're not there to teach them about economics or politics, although you may be able to have discussions on those subjects with advanced students. Think of it this way. They're dancing on a platform based on all the English they know. It's easy to push them off that platform into the vast void of English they don't know. In that void, they lose patience, confidence, and interest. Your job is to keep them dancing and pushing out the edges of their platform, little by little. If you don't know that, you're worth about 100 RMB per hour...maybe.

[Malsol]

EduLink China pays 300 per hr and it is a little town in Henan.

[prof]

Look at all the hate.

That's a lesson in itself.....sad. Losers unite against a fair wage!?!?!?

Newbies...demand 200-250 hour. It's doable. Even with poverty around you. If you don't get the money, it will just go to the leaders next BMW.

Don't listen to the "whipped".

[No Moss]

[WordUp]

LOL

[Steppenwolf]

Broken record:
"Losers unite...
the bosses will take flight...
FTs of the world make 300 kuai an hour,
Chinese slave-drivers' faces turn sour...
Loosers unie...good night..."
"

[NathanRahl]

I am afraid that prof is right, in part.

There is more then enough money at most schools to afford this amount, true.

Also true, just goes to the school owner or headmaster.

However, is it realistic, no.

Not because it is not doable by the school, but because of both who the schools will accept to teach, and the sheer number of positions available.

It is not like there is a lot of competition between teachers, there may be a lot of them, but generally speaking standards are very low.

Also, most schools, not all, but most, will accept you if you have a pulse, round eyes, and the right color skin. This is not condusive to high salaries.

Then of course, there are the loose laws that allow almost anyone with a pulse and a baseline average IQ to do the job.

Add all this up, and your not likely to get those salaries any higher then they currently are.

Basically, you have plenty of people willing to do the job, a market that does not take the job seriously, or respect it, and the sheer number of positions that make serious competition near impossible between teachers. Heck, you don't even have to be a real teacher to get one of these gigs.

Yes prof, it is a more then possible and doable wage, so what. It won't happen, because they let any mouthbreather do the job. Why pay you 250 when they can pay Amos the former moonshiner from Alabama 75. No offense intended to anyone who may be from Alabama.

Anyhow, can be a hard job, usually one where you will be underappreciated, and yes, you should make more, cause hey, the admin is, and your the one doing all of the work. But, will it happen, hell no, and that you can be sure of. Later

[cj750]

[No Moss]

Hmm, CJ. I learned something there. From the marijuana dictionary, chronic is strong weed. However, running "shine" refers to the delivery process, not the "cooking" process.

Moonshine (mountain dew, white lightening) is colorless corn mash whisky (hence white lightening) which was made to get around Prohibition, "dry" laws, and the federal tax on alcohol. It was popular in the Appalachians, since it used home-grown materials (corn) , and the stills were easy to conceal in the "hollers" (small valleys). From the name, you can guess that it was "cooked" at night to conceal the tell-tale smoke involved in the distillation process.

After Prohibition was appealed, there were still dry counties in many of the southern states, so "runners" delivered moonshine and eventually branded alcohol products to dry counties.

"Thunder Road" was a 1958 movie, starring Robert Mitchum, about a notorious "runner". The movie and the theme song, "Ballad of Thunder Road", were popular for years in the South.

Price? About $3.00 for a quart Mason jar in the late 60's. Not bad, but a little rough around the edges. Not much demand for it these days.

Sorry, folks, I've had a few days off and I don't know what to do with myself.

[7969]

employees salaries (anywhere, not only in ESL) have never been tied to how much profit a company makes. that might have some bearing on additional perks or benefits, but not base salary. if companies were all to pay salaries based on their yearly earnings/profits everyone working for my bank in canada would be a millionaire right now. salaries are based on:

1. local economic conditions,

2. what training is required for the job, and

3. whether or not there's a shortage or oversupply of qualified workers to take those jobs.

poor logic on this thread prof.

[cj750]

Shine is still made and consumed..and it ain't bad...as a matter of fact..the country where Jack Black is made is a dry county..and the only guy who can legally allow liquor to pass over his lips..is the official taste tester...

it is amazing what those boys in Tennessee can do with a little corn....

I think most of you would be surprised as to how much of the budget a school business earmarks for the FTs...