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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Jyulee, "fluency" is a measurable parameter in language learning. There are degrees of fluency. When speaking about fluency, we can ask HOW FLUENT a speaker is.
The particular degree of fluency that you are talking about is native-speaker fluency, which is admittedly very difficult to achieve after the teenage years. But somebody can be "fluent" in an L2 without being just like a native speaker. I'm sure your fluency in Spanish is at a high level if you can produce Spanish easily, comfortably, and readily. 
Fluency and accuracy are usually considered to be two different measurable parameters in language acquisition. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
Jyulee, "fluency" is a measurable parameter in language learning. There are degrees of fluency. When speaking about fluency, we can ask HOW FLUENT a speaker is.
The particular degree of fluency that you are talking about is native-speaker fluency, which is admittedly very difficult to achieve after the teenage years. But somebody can be "fluent" in an L2 without being just like a native speaker. I'm sure your fluency in Spanish is at a high level if you can produce Spanish easily, comfortably, and readily.
Fluency and accuracy are usually considered to be two different measurable parameters in language acquisition. |
Agreed. And in general, being fluent in general conversation doesn't mean much when you're asked to explain details of your car's malfunction to a mechanic, or suddenly have a technical translation order shoved in your face (say, on the technical development of oilfields, for example). |
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christee
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Agreed as well. When I think of fluency in a language--in addition to comfort with speaking, reading, listening, and writing without a second though--I consider whether or not one can "think" in the language. I knew had finally attained a reasonable degree of fluency in German when I woke up one morning and realized all my dreams were conducted in German!  |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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What exactly does "fluent" mean in the context of these posts?
Does it mean "Sounding completely 100% like a native speaker of the language in question"? Like "So good at the language that other native speakers are fooled into thinking that you were born and grew up in the country in question"? |
Fluency is sometimes described as a measure of fluidity or ease of speech.
As far as fooling anybody, I imagine most of us never will. Most research indicates that the upper limit for acquisition of a language without accent is around the onset of puberty. Any language you learned after you turned 12 is pretty much going to have an accent.
I would say I'm completely fluent in Spanish- meaning that I speak it without effort and understand all that I hear. But although I've been speaking it half my life (which means since my mid to late teens) I still have, and will presumably always have, a foreign accent. Not overly strong, doesn't impede communication, but mostly people know right away that I'm not Ecuadorian. (Every now and then, I can pass on the phone. Usually in short conversations. )
Of course, an accent hardly matters, as face to face, people would mostly know that I wasn't from here anyway.  I'm somewhat taller, and a hell of a lot fairer and balder than most Ecuadorians. So what's in an accent. Some people find a foreign accent VERY attractive...
Best,
Justin |
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Jyulee
Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so maybe fluency is more about "how easily you use the language" than "how native you sound".
In which case, I am, I suppose, "reasonably fluent".
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sometimes surprised at the language levels of people who call themselves 'fluent'.. There does seem to be a difference between extensive knowledge of a language and being able to use it with facility. I grew up in Italy (but English schooling) and recently returned here after 40 years. People can tell I'm foreign but aren't sure where I'm from, and what I know I can speak with great rapidity and in this context, fluidity. But I'm not 'fluent'.
I reckon I sound fairly good (although I've lost my former Roman accent), but I'd never claim for great accuracy. Teaching beginners' Italian has done wonders for my understanding of what I'm actually saying in terms of grammar and construction. |
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Khrystene
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: WAW, PL/SYD, AU
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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English - Fluent/Native
Polish - UpperInt. [or thereabouts, I guess!]
Russian - Basics
And a smattering of lots of other languages. 
As for experience teaching, I believe it's 4 years now. Seems like forever! |
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Venti
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sweetsee wrote: |
| Not speaking any foreign languages and teaching one would be a bit like teaching tennis and not being able to play. |
This is a bad one, Sweetsee.
It doesn't work on several levels, but I'll explain only one here. See, if you are a native English speaker, and you teach English, you are not teaching a foreign language as far as you're concerned; You're teaching your native language.
Go ahead and make an analogy between foreign languages and sports. That could work. But, don't then analogize tennis and a language being taught if the taught language is the teacher's native one. See, tennis falls into the set of "sports", but native languages and foreign languages are separate groups.
Of course, if you were making some stupidly random statement about people who have no French (for example) ability, but are teaching it anyway, then that's not worth responding to.
Having said that,
Deicide, I'm between level 2 and level 1 Japanese (JLPT rating). According to this rating, I'm at the high-intermediate level. But, I often feel like I'm far from being skilled in the language. My listening is quite good and, with the exception of techinical topics, I can understand just about anything I hear in Japanese. I think in Japanese when I have conversations in Japanese and have long since ceased translating my English thoughts before speaking.
I'd say I use English only 30-40% of the time in my daily life. The rest of the time it's all Japanese. But, I still feel like I have a long way to go before being really fluent. I suppose at some point I got comfortable with my abilities and just stopped studying seriously. Guess I should get back into it. |
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