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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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TravelingAround - I like your suggestion that there may be a better way to distinguish between desirable and undesirable FTs than the rather course gate of 'having a degree.' I've got good teachers who don't have a degree. China would lose if we lost them. Sometimes we turn degree'd teachers way because they are not suitable for performanced based reasons. There's a lot of overlap between the two groups - degree'd and not.
I think our school is sifting pretty successfully and that's no doubt the reason that I'm having a different experience and have a different perspective than some others on this post. |
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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Malsol"]
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The best solution is to stop trying to put a native English speaker in every classroom.
Use them to teach the Chinese teachers only, either the new ones still in college or the older experienced ones through continuing education. |
Actually, Malsol, what you and I are suggesting is not so far apart. This is a quote from what I initially wrote starting this string -
"Our CETs have language degrees or Education degrees and are fluent in both languages. In our particular case, they are expert in both language and education - you'd be very hard pressed to say that these professionals are not qualified language teachers, and they are in fact the teachers who lead the educational program.
The foreign English teacher (FET), who may or may not be academically qualified, provides the L1 language. They function like a teacher's aid - mind you a very well used and talkative teacher's aid!
I argue that, with CETs who are academically language and education qualified, it is redundant to REQUIRE the FET to be likewise qualified."
Malsol, my understanding of your suggestion is that the Chinese English teachers need to better prepared and so that they can do a professional job of teaching English - to the point that it isn't even necessary to have a FT in every classroom. That's what I'm suggesting - getting excellent Chinese English teachers and providing them with additional training so that they can lead the teaching effort. They teach classes independently and also in a team teaching situation with a FT.
I guess the remaining point that separates us is that I see a larger role for an L1 language speaker - maybe we shouldn't call them a 'teacher' - call them a 'teacher's aid' but none-the-less they have an important contribution to make.
I recently had a conversation with a PhD linguist, Chinese fellow, full professor at a prestigious Chinese university, schooled at MIT, published in interational journals. He had great L2 English, but it clearly wasn't L1.
So, no matter how well the Chinese teachers are educated, they are not going to be able to provide the L1 language. That's what we need foreigners to do - provide L1 English to the Chinese language student. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| So, no matter how well the Chinese teachers are educated, they are not going to be able to provide the L1 language. That's what we need foreigners to do - provide L1 English to the Chinese language student. |
duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - that's about all most FT's do do (and at a very poor pay rate compaired to other types of ex-pat employment) - with of course not forgetting that little fact of doing your bosses profit margins a bit of good at the same time.
Money dear winterlynx - money - please don't forget the economic factors surrounding ESL world China in your strategic policy on making China an English speaking nation. By the way, do you still beleive most FT's are brought here to teach English  |
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NathanRahl
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I just wanted to chime in on this subject because indeed, it is an interesting one.
First off, I hear many saying that having a degree means that you will atleast be assured of some level of capability on the graduates part.
Ok, have we all forgotten what a degree is? It is just a piece of paper, and has nothing to do with intellect, teaching ability, or anything of that nature.
When I was in college I had many classmates who did more drinking, partying, then actual studying. They got mediocre grades, many cheated, downloaded things from the net, or just repackaged someone elses thoughts as their own, new wrapper on something very old. The truth is, all you need to get a degree is to be able to tell the professor what they want to hear. Type something up, use a lot of big flowery words, wrap it up in a nice bow, and you'l get atleast a B-.
Lets be honest, first off, there is way too much eltist thinking on this board, and secondly, a degree doesn't mean anything.
Are you all aware that 10 years after graduating college you have forgotten 95 percent of everything you learned?
How much do those of you who have dgerees actually maintain your high level of intellect *snicker*. I have found that most of my fellow gradutes rest upon their laurels, and that is a mistake most of you are making.
In the end it is just a piece of paper, with no intrinsic value.
Oh, and the old arguement I keep hearing about how at least having it guarantees some kind of higher level of dedication in the person is absurd. I attended a private college of high note and small size, and truth be told, most of the folks there learned little, did less, and partied most of all, and they graduated. Don't fool yourself into thinking going to college means anything about dedication. It "can" but so can anything if you pursue it with vigor.
And of course you may indeed be better off hiring someone who has a degree in english, or education, maybe you won't be. There is teaching out there that is non academic that is teaching nonetheless, and if I ran into someone who had 20 years teaching, but not in english and no degree, and someone with a degree but no experience, who would I hire? Sorry, but I'm hiring the person with experience. A piece of paper doesn't mean anything.
To be honest a college degree is worth the paper it is printed on and nothing more. Most go to college to spend four years hoping to find what they will do for the rest of their lives, and spend that four years being as unoriginal and lazy as possible. Yeah, their are exceptions, but even if your orginal and authentic, you'll still forget most of what you learned very soon after.
The moral of this story, don't look at the degree, look at the person. If china really wants to get qualified people, enough with the pretend laws about needing a degree. Create a mandatory test that measures their knowledge of the language and their ability to teach. It can be done, and I would be willing to bet that as many, if not more with degrees flunked out on this test, then those who did not possess one. Do not only make the test written, test them in the classroom, present them with real live scenarios insofar as teaching. Even here in the states one must work as a TA for a certain amount of time before teaching, do this in china as well.
Generally speaking, this would be the best way. Degrees are overrated, highly so, so lets knock off the eltist crappola. Want a better english teacher here, create standards that really matter, not ones which have a billion loopholes in them. Test em, and then have them work as a TA for their first month or two here, you'll see the quality go up markedly.
None of these things will happen though, because as one astute person pointed out, atleast in regards to this comment. "They just want a conversation buddy, not a teacher" and thats 100% on the money.
Last edited by NathanRahl on Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The moral of this story, don't look at the degree, look at the person |
thats what they do do in china - well at least look at their photo - make sure the applicant is nice an' white - and then give 'em the job (very often no need for telephone interviews or nuthin'). If I were to choose between this system and one of making a minimum requirement a degree - then give me elitism any day.
Nice to see ya back Nathan  |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| So Nathan is now friends with all those backpackers he scorned before because he was China's best and most professional FT! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan if I read a post like the last one - I would wonder if anybody posting that kind of stuff was good FT material - I'd then starting asking the poster a bit about his own qualifications |
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Shakhbut
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 167
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Nathan if I read a post like the last one - I would wonder if anybody posting that kind of stuff was good FT material - I'd then starting asking the poster a bit about his own qualifications |
....and how he could possibly spell this badly. Sorry, Nathan, but you teach English!
BTW, degree vs 20 years experience - uh, difficult one. Even five years of relevant experience would do it for me.
S |
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c-way
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Nathan Said
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| Ok, have we all forgotten what a degree is? It is just a piece of paper, and has nothing to do with intelect, teaching abaility, or anything of that nature. |
I'll ignore the what seem to be purposeful errors and simply ask if a degree is a just a piece of paper that any idiot can get then why doesn't every idiot get one. That an idiot will cheat, download from the net and repackage someone else's ideas for four years or longer attests to its importance. The idiot who does that, for all his lack of intellect and complete mediocrity, displays an infinitely better understanding of the world and infinitely more common sense than the highminded high school grad who says "degrees are just useless pieces of paper with no intrinsic value". (Yes, I know you have a degree, which makes your statement even the more comedic. "I wasted years of my life learning information I've since forgotten to obtain a piece of paper with no intrinsic value." Kudos to you!)
Even if you have forgotten 95% of what you learned in college, you have retained the ability to learn new concepts and analyze and process information. A college grad who takes advantage of the many opportunities that his/her degree affords them has undoubtedly replaced that forgotten information with new, more useful information.
And yes, a college degree does tend to, not guarantee, but tend to denote a certain level of dedication on the part of an individual. If someone wants to go to a decent college, they will have to work in high school to be accepted. If the college is in fact decent, they will have to work in college to graduate. On the other hand there are many out there who are not stellar students and perhaps work some years before going back to college or who attend community colleges to transfer into a 4 year college.
Regardless of the path, each shows a commitment on the part of the person because they are demonstrating a willingness to work and pay in order to gain an advantage in the work place. Sorry your buddies in college copied all your notes and cheated off you on the test, but your idea that this is the rule and not the exception is off the mark.
Nathan Said
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| Create a mandatory test that tests their knnoledge of the language and their ability to teach. It can be done, and I would be willing to bet that as many, if not more with degrees flunked out on this test, then those who did not possess one. |
This has to be inflammatory.
Well done. |
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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Not all degrees are created equal. Not all high school diplomas are created equal. The individual factors in very significantly. Hence, my desire to leave the door open regardless of the paper. The job here is big enough that there is lots of room for anyone prepared to do a good piece of work.
That said, there are also jobs that require the skills of bone fide language professionals who are very, very good at what they do. In fact, there's a critical need for those people in this country.
If you wanna be one of �em, I say step up to the plate, get the skills and get to work. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| winterlynx1 wrote: |
That said, there are also jobs that require the skills of bone fide language professionals who are very, very good at what they do. In fact, there's a critical need for those people in this country.
If you wanna be one of �em, I say step up to the plate, get the skills and get to work. |
If you don't invest in an adequate training or academic preparation to be a teacher yourself you are potentially too young to stand in front of a class that will judge you not just by appearances but by your track record too.
And if you don't have any meaningful pedagogical or educational foundation, how can you be partners with someone who has to do the more demanding job of "assisting" you? Shouldn't the FT be in the lead?
Having some certs and degrees may look trivial to some, but having no degrees seems to mean these folks don't take teaching seriouslyt so why should they be teaching others? Can they empathise with their learners?
This is the same as speaking a foreign tongue to students: if you don't have the experience of learning a second language, how can you set the learners' temp and dictate what their goals must be every week?
I feel if people don't want to be adequately trained and prepared academically, they should not expect jobs with good remunerations packages; instead they should offer their service as volunteers to someone who knows how to use them in spite of their limited usefulness! |
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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Steppenwolf wrote: |
If you don't invest in an adequate training or academic preparation to be a teacher yourself you are potentially too young to stand in front of a class that will judge you not just by appearances but by your track record too.
And if you don't have any meaningful pedagogical or educational foundation, how can you be partners with someone who has to do the more demanding job of "assisting" you? Shouldn't the FT be in the lead?
...
I feel if people don't want to be adequately trained and prepared academically, they should not expect jobs with good remunerations packages; instead they should offer their service as volunteers to someone who knows how to use them in spite of their limited usefulness! |
Thoughtful questions and comments, Steppenwolf. I'll answer in several parts.
1. You seem to be speaking from the context university teaching. I�m speaking more from the context of education prior to the university level. But still �
2. There is ample precedent for staff without degrees participating in the classroom. Public schools in Canada and the United States frequently employ teachers� aids to assist students in the classroom. Teachers� aides have training akin to a TESOL cert. The aides work under the supervision of a degree�d teacher. This is the model that I�m advocating in TESOL (see my initial post).
But even in universities, teaching assistants without degrees are often employed to work under the supervision of a professor. True enough, they�ve taken the course and done well, but nevertheless they teach in western universities without degrees.
The language of an L1 English speaker is so much in advance of the language of virtually any Chinese university student that a mature English speaking FT working in the capacity of a teaching assistant will have no trouble with credibility.
However, if a FT is going to be the lead teacher for a university course, then he or she should have a degree.
3. A problem we struggle with in the TESOL world in China is that there is little or no differentiation. Everyone is a FT � whether you have a high school diploma, an undergraduate degree, a graduate degree; whether you work as a teacher, a curriculum developer, a teaching supervisor or an administrator; whether you work in a kindergarten, primary school, high school or university; whether in the private or public sector - everybody is a FT and works under pretty close to the same regulation.
5. Everybody knows that to achieve fluency in a second language the best advice is to go to a country and immerse yourself in the language � speaking to L1 speakers all the time for an extended period of time. Most of those English speakers won�t have a university degree � but you still develop fluency by talking to them. Most people in China don�t have the opportunity to go overseas, so the next best thing is to bring the L1 speaker to the student. Of course it�s much less effective than going overseas � but it�s better than not being exposed to the L1 language at all.
6. Many Chinese students simply couldn�t afford the cost of bringing only degree�d FTs into the country as teachers � assuming the supply would be large enough regardless of the salary.
7. If you check out my initial post, you�ll see that I�ve advocated a well trained Chinese holder of a relevant degree as the lead teacher (unless the foreign teacher is bilingual). So the issue of a FT supervising a person with higher credentials and skill won�t arise.
As I have amply articulated in previous posts, at the heart of my opposition to requiring a degree to be a FT is the experience that I�ve had of many FTs with degrees failing to distinguish themselves based on performance. My opinion is basically inductive, rather than deductive. It�s unfortunate that many degree�d FTs do not pay proper respect to their education by utilizing what they have learned to the advantage of their students and the profession. A degree does not compensate for poor performance.
May I add, with emphasis, that I�ve had degree�d FTs who have perform professionally and are a credit to their degrees and the institutions that granted them. There are a few degree�d professionals in this business in China who perform in a thoroughly outstanding fashion. I�m not a degree basher � I�ve invested considerable time and money obtaining my own degrees and other professional qualifications. In a related post I�ve tried to outline the roles, in addition to FT, that I think degree�d professionals should assume in the TESOL world.
But there are also non-degree�d FTs who are making outstanding contributions, and China needs them. I�ve had non-degree�d FTs working for me who have, frankly, left the more poorly performing of their degree�d peers far in the dust in terms of performance. No contest. There�s no way I�d send them packing. |
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winterlynx1
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Xi'an, Shaanxi, China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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True Story
I close an important contract with a public school to supply a FT. I send in a mature FT with a university degree in a field related to teaching English. The FT messes it up. The Principal phones me and says we have one week to fix it or she's pulling out of the contract. She demands a new FT.
I have two choices for the new FT. One is a mature educator with a Masters Degree in Education. The other is a twenty year old with credentials to match.
I send in the twenty year old.
The new FT teaches one class. The Principal phones me and says it's all good. And she wants that 20 year old FT for every assignment at her school.
Performance. |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| winterlynx1 wrote: |
1. You seem to be speaking from the context university teaching. I�m speaking more from the context of education prior to the university level. But still �
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This seems to be a cause of confusion on a few threads on here. Each person seems at times to be referring to their own level of learners yet people reading it often envisage their own classes. We should remember that different levels sometimes require different solutions.
Then again...the crackdown (if it is ever to happen) would presumably be on teachers across the board? Are we to suggest that an FT at a university requires a degree and so seemingly is more important than an FT at a school who doesn't need one? It seems to suggest that if they are to need less qualifications.
Difficult subject really...if they could actually get all the teachers they needed while having a degree-only policy it would be a different matter... |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| winterlynx1 wrote: |
2. There is ample precedent for staff without degrees participating in the classroom. Public schools in Canada and the United States frequently employ teachers� aids to assist students in the classroom. Teachers� aides have training akin to a TESOL cert. The aides work under the supervision of a degree�d teacher. This is the model that I�m advocating in TESOL (see my initial post).
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This is where I disagree with your stance and where you are coming from. You see...
Teaching assistants are not teachers. We are supposed to be talking about teachers here and what they require to be in possession of surely? If you or your organisation are happy with the way you are suggesting - and I'm sure it is cheaper and could easily allow more money to go into the pockets of the owners as a qualified Chinese teacher is a lot cheaper than an FT - then fine. Frankly I prefer the system of having foreigners in the classroom whenever possible who actually have the skills and qualifications to actually teach if possible. Not that I'm suggesting a degree is that (or a TEFL less than an academic year long for that matter if we are getting into qualifications relevant to western schools) but then what should the Chinese demand from an FT? We haven't had a better option put forward...
You seem to be describing "FTs" as being instead teaching assistants - a voice alongside their qualified Chinese colleague...well that is fine but they should not be referred to as teachers nor should they be eligible for a visa as a Foreign Expert. Surely we should instead be calling a spade a spade? Maybe a Foreign Non-Expert certificate is needing in that case?
I'm not against non-degreed teachers in China as such as I have known some who are good at it. Yet surely we should not try and devalue the profession by making them the junior partner alongside their far more qualified and experienced Chinese 'teacher' (thought they were assistants?)...sounds more like a monkey than a teacher to me...
Last edited by TravellingAround on Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:10 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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