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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| yaramaz wrote: |
| Reducing Islam to what the more vocal and reactionary clerics shout out is like defining Christianity by using Bush or Pat Robertson as models, or Judaism using Ariel Sharon. I've been living in a muslim country for half a decade and my boyfriend is a (lapsed) muslim and a huge number of my friends are muslim and I get not sense at all of them being delusional or unintelligent (nor has anyone here ever tried to push their beliefs on me). I'm agnostic by birth, raised by a gardener and an ex lit prof, who were themselves raised agnostic. I have no real ability to understand how it feels to be religious and I'm pretty sure I'll never really be able to cast aside my lack of certainty about anything, but I really don't think I'd ever have the right to decide for others what to think or believe. It's a pretty big universe and if you think you understand exactly what is going on then you are equally delusional. |
I don't think I understand exactly what is going; don't put words in my mouth. Are you agnostic about the Flying Spaghetti Monster too? Delusional is relative. Often the mind is compartmentalised in cased of sincere religious belief and science... |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
Hi Deicide,
I'll just say again that if you want to prove a belief false you need to defeat its BEST defenders, not its worst.
I'm still waiting for the verdict on "The Everlasting Man" by Chesterton. It certainly defeated the atheist Lewis, and his mind was far sharper than anything I've seen in the modern world.
But I think the OP was about bringing up these questions in class. |
I have already had my private discussion with you about this. I don't find Chesterton convincing. He essentially argues for the utility of his beliefs, not for their truth value.
Last edited by Deicide on Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sheikh Inal Ovar
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208
Location: Melo Drama School
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
I used Muslim apologist in the loosest of terms. When hordes of Muslims gather together calling for the deaths of newspaper editors and cartoonists, when imams pronounce death fatwas against Rushdie and others, when Ibn Warraq uses a pen name to publish critical works on Islam so as not to be murdered, people like you either schrug your shoulders or you criticise freedom of speech and press, arguing that such people have brought death upon themselves. There is a big difference between fear and respect and most people fear the consequences of criticising Islam more than they respect the religion. I am glad you are making tons of money over there but trying to airbrush the nature of the place is well... :? |
See ... this is the omniscience I was talking about ... who are people like me ... you seem to know ...
... and where have "I airbrushed over the nature of the Gulf'' ... I don't believe I've said anything positive about it or even mentioned it ... and am not likely to even in the happiest of drunken hazes ... all I have done is to question you and your loose words ...
Your pride and prejudice have done most of your thinking here ... |
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Sheikh Inal Ovar
Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208
Location: Melo Drama School
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps this earlier post of mine will help you see what type of Muslim apologist you're dealing with ...
Latest reports from Copenhagen ... a young man has been admitted to hospital after being attacked by a swarm of flies while protesting naked in a central square ... Hans L. Urpak had covered himself in butter to protest against what he thinks is the irrational boycott of Danish products overseas ... placing a large knob of butter to cover his private parts and thus preserve his natural modesty, Mr Urpak had not been protesting more than twenty minutes when enormous black flies began swarming to the scent of the fast melting fat ...
Luckily for Mr Urpak an old woman passing by, Bitta Nous, released her can of newly purchased fly-spray on the black mass, scattering them long enough for Hans to dash for cover ...
From his hospital bed, Hans commented "it was a good job Bitta appeared when she did as my knob of decency was fast disppearing ... "
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=35106&highlight=bird+flu+riots |
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yaramaz
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 2384
Location: Not where I was before
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm, the knob of decency. Can I use that for the title of my new book on Islam? |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:01 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, seems this thread has been sidelined while I have been busy traveling. Actually, one thing I do like about Japan is usually the absence of arguements about religion. Of course, the ignorance about other things outside of Japan can be annoying...  |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Hmm, seems this thread has been sidelined while I have been busy traveling. Actually, one thing I do like about Japan is usually the absence of arguements about religion. Of course, the ignorance about other things outside of Japan can be annoying... |
Yeah I have heard that about Japan; can't say the same about Korea; tons of Christian cultists running about here....  |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Hmm, seems this thread has been sidelined while I have been busy traveling. Actually, one thing I do like about Japan is usually the absence of arguements about religion. Of course, the ignorance about other things outside of Japan can be annoying... |
Yeah I have heard that about Japan; can't say the same about Korea; tons of Christian cultists running about here.... |
I once went to meet a private student at the station and as I approached I found her shrinking into a corner as two slightly older and larger women were pushing leaflets into her hand and explaining something to her.
"Are these your friends?" I asked her as I walked up behind them. My student shook her head vigourously extricating herself from the other two and ran behind me to hide. I was a bit annoyed to see her apparently harrassed like this and asked the two other women in Japanese what they thought they were doing. They told me that they weren't Japanese but Korean and they were asking her if she wanted to attend their church. They then held out a leaflet to me also but I said "No thankyou" and escorted my student away. She seemed a little shaken up by it as though she couldn't imagine what on Earth the two Korean women were doing.
So during the lesson I did talk a little about religion. Maybe that is one way to bring up a sensitive subject with your students: Have them confronted with it just before class. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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As for forming an opinion, supporting it, finding weak points in another's argument and drawing a new conclusion, I've found a book that teaches just those skills (to ESL students, no less!)
Hate to sound like an advertiser, but here's the link:
http://www.languagesolutionsinc.com/dd/dd_free_stuff.html
If we really want to focus on the skill and not the content, why not bring up topics like "Cats are better than dogs." 
The teacher is also a student, eh? |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
As for forming an opinion, supporting it, finding weak points in another's argument and drawing a new conclusion, I've found a book that teaches just those skills (to ESL students, no less!)
Hate to sound like an advertiser, but here's the link:
http://www.languagesolutionsinc.com/dd/dd_free_stuff.html
If we really want to focus on the skill and not the content, why not bring up topics like "Cats are better than dogs."
The teacher is also a student, eh? |
I completely agree with your approach and it is one that I have always tried to do. It is the language of discussion/argument that we should be teaching and we don't need to bring controversial subjects into it.
It has always seemed to me that too many ESL/EFL teachers have tried to bring up "sensitive" topics that are close to their own heart which they have very strong opinions on and then abuse their position by setting up a situation in which they go toe-to-toe in a debate with their students and care little for the development of their students' ability to form debating skills.
But, how do you square such an opinion with this, which is the antithesis of what you say?
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=44586&highlight= |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: |
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It is even questionable whether we should be forming debating skills in our students.
I deal with students taught by their schools to passivity. Waiting for the teacher to tell them what to do, then when they do something, looking at me for confirmation, "Is that right?". I go stupid and say, "I don't know. IS that right?" (I'll even put on dark sunglasses for a laugh so they can't read my eyes) while they go digging back in the books and dictionaries and learn to check their answers for themselves.
Teaching them to teach themselves seems a lot more important than debating skills, although I'd acknowledge that at the advanced levels debating something is probably going to raise its head. It's stll hard to do in class because many cultures discourage expression of personal opinions, and defending them doubly so.
That said, if you do express your personal opinions to students, don't disagree too sharply! You'll offend them, then lose them. Better to avoid the sensitive topics and limit yourself to the neutral moderator role if they bring it up until you know your students very well. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
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What do you mean?
That was an instance of kids having opinions not based on truth, but on propaganda. I wasn't trying to impart my views on them, rather, I was trying to make them aware of other versions of the "truth", which is what I continue to strive towards. There are a number of perspectives for any "known" truth.
To quote myself:
| Jizzo T. Clown wrote: |
During the lesson, we were talking about movies (Kundun, in particular). I was telling the class the plot and that's when things started to go south. The Taiwanese students wanted to know more about it and the Chinese students were saying that it was a lie. Other nationalities listened without prejudice.
I'm well aware that I'm not qualified to teach history, but it is my job to train our students to participate in class discussions and to thoughtfully articulate their responses. Sometimes controversial topics arise out of a seemingly benign discussion, as was the case here. |
But at that point in time, I wasn't teaching the skills of debating. I was trying to teach listening comprehension (in the role of moderator, rus) through a movie. Big difference. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Hmm, I hardly think Jizzo seems the type. I did know one English teacher who loved to shove Amnesty International down the throats of his students. It led to him being disrequested by some students who were interested in that topic, even though in other ways I think he was a fun teacher.
The only times I have talked about Amnesty International was when it was presented in texts that I was using (one for academic English, another for a media class).
As mentioned earlier, even some environmetally prone teachers can come off preaching. Teaching a food class is okay, but when you start getting away from discussion and more toward lectures, it doesn't serve the students as well. They can often get that from their Japanese lecturers   ! |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| I don't find Chesterton convincing. He essentially argues for the utility of his beliefs, not for their truth value. |
Just for the record, while you may find him unconvincing, he does argue for truth. His logical chains are not straight-line like Lewis's, but his whole point is about identifying truth in a world that has gotten hopelessly confused on the matter. Not sure where you get the idea that he is a pragmatic. That shows a complete misunderstanding of the man. I take it that means you didn't read "The Everlasting Man" which is a definitive work.
That said, now back to our show! |
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maruss
Joined: 18 Mar 2003
Posts: 1145
Location: Cyprus
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: Controversial topics etc. |
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How about the leading article from the latest edition on line of exile.ru which speculates on whether the Russian economy is going to crash again?
It could hardly cause offence but is bound to be of interest because it's something which affects everyone,except filthy rich oligarchs! |
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