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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Nismo wrote:
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| Koreans don't have it any worse in Japan than any other nationality. How do I know this? MY WIFE IS KOREAN. |
Nismo, may I ask you a serious question? Many Koreans (perhaps your wife, too, perhaps not) feel they have to hide their identities by changing their names to Japanese ones. I don't think this is the case with other nationalities living here. Maybe the Chinese, but I haven't heard this about them.
I think this ranks as "worse" than other nationalities. Don't you think so, too? |
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japanman
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 281
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| They only change their name to achieve "complete" acceptance from society. Once they change they name, it is impossible to know who their ancestors were. If you race is different to east Asian, you dont stand a chance of being like that, so to change your name would be a waste of time. |
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ironopolis
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| japanman wrote: |
| They only change their name to achieve "complete" acceptance from society. |
Simply not true that this is the only reason. Glenski's point was correct.
Many change their name (or have a Japanese name they use for certain circumstances) purely and simply to make life less difficult. I personally know and regularly see 3 zainichi Koreans who went to a regular Japanese high school where they were known by a Japanese name and who still use that Japanese name for a variety of situations in their adult life too. They do this to make these situations easier for themselves. All 3 have told me so in so many words. They didn't "complain" about it, just stated it as a fact. I always call each of them by their Korean names. I have met others though, that no longer use the Korean name at all.
Apologies to Nismo if this is wrong, but I've a feeling his wife is from Korea, not Japan, and spent some time living here, but is not a zainichi Korean. If this is the case, he probably wouldn't know much about the zainichis' very different situation to those Koreans who came to Japan to work/study etc like most on this forum did. |
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jademonkey
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
| First of all, getting the crap beaten out of you is not necessary in order for racism to be overt... Beatings and lynchings just happen to be extreme examples of the above... |
True, but that happens more in (for example) my country than in Japan.
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| Based on your sarcasm here, I can't help but conclude that somehow you feel that a WHITE MAN deserves to be discriminated against... Somehow, because the WHITE MAN perpetuated racism for so many years, he's getting his just deserts based on your "just world hypothesis" right? |
I wouldn't say 'deserves'. What I was trying to say was that for once (i.e., that it's relatively rare) it is a white man being discriminated against. I'm not celebrating it, I'm saying that it's noticeable because in most people on these board's home countries, white people are NOT discriminated against.
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| If you're going to go down that road then just head on over to the other thread where people feel that they are entitled to steal from their employers because their employers stole from them. Otherwise, let's not sit here trying to play "my racism is worse than your racism" and "this victim is better off than that victim" head games. |
On the first point, I won't argue that since that's not the topic at hand, and on the second point, fair enough & a good point.
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| ...instead of getting angry at those who are pointing out the obvious -- (that there are racists in Japan), why don't you try getting angry at those racists and confront them with what you yourself decribe as vile? |
I have, to be honest. I've tried to explain to many people in Japan that racism or overt nationalism is not a good thing. Some of them even pretended to listen to me.
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| I can name at least 3 or 4 Japanese people AND ex-pats living in Japan who like to think that they live in the land of the gods and a magical place whose citizens can do no wrong. Hard to believe, yes, but swing by some time and I'll introduce you to them. |
Haha, no need, I've met their type already. Give them six months and they'll hate the place...unless they're entrenched and you'll never save them.  |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ironopolis wrote: |
| Apologies to Nismo if this is wrong, but I've a feeling his wife is from Korea, not Japan, and spent some time living here, but is not a zainichi Korean. If this is the case, he probably wouldn't know much about the zainichis' very different situation to those Koreans who came to Japan to work/study etc like most on this forum did. |
Spot on. She's not zainichi. Her big sister emigrated to Japan from Korea 7 years ago, and my wife arrived in Japan to begin her studies 5 and a half years ago. They don't have the experience of being born and raised in the country, though.
Side note: I heard one of the Downtown guys was actually zainichi, but don't know if it's actually true. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not celebrating it, I'm saying that it's noticeable because in most people on these board's home countries, white people are NOT discriminated against. |
I would disagree. Certainly I have seen some discrimination in my home country the US, but I have seen much more in Asia in general.
What is surprising is that Japan, which wants to be a leader in Asia and elsewhere, seems to live in an old age feudal system where some people can't change their feathers so to speak, no matter how long they have lived here or in some cases if they were born here, but to the wrong parents. It is almost similar to a caste system, and it is sad to see it continuing here.
Of course there are worse places for discrimination, but generally speaking, they are less devloped countries and they can try to argue that economic development is more important than improving human and social rights.
What's the excuse here in Japan? I heard Abe and Ishihara are always looking fo more PR shills, perhaps a career beckons.  |
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markle
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 1316
Location: Out of Japan
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
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| I'm saying that it's noticeable because in most people on these board's home countries, white people are NOT discriminated against. |
I would disagree. Certainly I have seen some discrimination in my home country the US, but I have seen much more in Asia in general.
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Umm you're actually agreeing, he's saying that most of the people on this board are white, middle class men who are by and large the least exposed to any kind of discrimination back home. And consequently throw a hissy fit when they have to deal with some mild forms of racial stereotyping when they come to Asia. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jademonkey wrote: |
Disagree.
consider:
a) You're equating patriotism with nationalism. Again. Stop it.
b) Meaningless drivel about 'world unity'. |
i really don't see that preaching world unity is any different to preaching national unity, except for the fact that national unity is a reduced and therefore limited version of the same.
why should one need to teach patriotism in schools? if something is deserving of praise, it will be praised; if not then there is probably a problem there.
in thailand there are a great many problems - patriotism often serves to "paper over the cracks" in my opinion.
japanese patriotism cannot be the same as other forms of patriotism anyway because they are struggling to embrace multi-culturalism. the kind of "patriotism" we are fostering in the uk is by definition more "international".
we are in the 21st century now, we should be going forward not backwards.
Last edited by hentaigaijin on Tue May 29, 2007 5:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| markle wrote: |
| Umm you're actually agreeing, he's saying that most of the people on this board are white, middle class men who are by and large the least exposed to any kind of discrimination back home. And consequently throw a hissy fit when they have to deal with some mild forms of racial stereotyping when they come to Asia. |
get it all the time in thailand but i do find it not a little moronic. like these people are so surprised to see us. who did they think was teaching them english? the abominable snowman?
is racism offensive? yes. above all i feel pity for the offenders. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jademonkey wrote: |
| Why do you assume that so called 'global citizenship' is superior to national citizenship? Global patriotism is such a general term as to be meaningless. Instead of brainwashing kids, we teach them vacuous garbage instead, do we? |
do you consider the european union to be vacuous garbage? |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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In the UK, for immigrants to obtain citizenship, they now have to take a citizenship test.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2713349.stm
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| Former Conservative minister Norman Tebbit once suggested the "cricket test", also known as the "Tebbit test", where he suggested that people from ethnic minorities in Britain should not be considered truly British until they supported the England cricket team, as opposed to the country of their ancestors' birth. |
Quote from Wikipedia.
I'm not entirely sure that we are fostering international patriotism. Take a look at the national curriculum for history in key stages 1 & 2. It all seems to be making a well rounded 'Brit' to me.
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Unit 1. How are our toys different from those in the past?
Unit 2. What were homes like a long time ago?
Unit 3. What were seaside holidays like in the past?
Unit 4. Why do we remember Florence Nightingale?
Unit 5. How do we know about the Great Fire of London?
Unit 6A. Why have people invaded and settled in Britain in the past? A Roman case study
Unit 6B. Why have people invaded and settled in Britain in the past? An Anglo-Saxon case study
Unit 6C. Why have people invaded and settled in Britain in the past? A Viking case study
Unit 7. Why did Henry VIII marry six times?
Unit 8. What were the differences between the lives of rich and poor people in Tudor times?
Unit 9. What was it like for children in the Second World War?
Unit 10. What can we find out about ancient Egypt from what has survived?
Unit 11. What was it like for children living in Victorian Britain?
Unit 12. How did life change in our locality in Victorian times?
Unit 13. How has life in Britain changed since 1948?
Unit 14. Who were the ancient Greeks?
Unit 15. How do we use ancient Greek ideas today?
Unit 16. How can we find out about the Indus Valley civilisation?
Unit 17. What are we remembering on Remembrance Day?
Unit 18. What was it like to live here in the past?
Unit 19. What were the effects of Tudor exploration?
Unit 20. What can we learn about recent history from studying the life of a famous person? |
English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish are known to be very nationalistic countries. Look at the way that we support our national sports teams. |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| zorro (3) wrote: |
| In the UK, for immigrants to obtain citizenship, they now have to take a citizenship test. |
if there is such a test, it seems a bit late in the day to be setting one (i.e. the face of the uk has already been changed dramatically). are we going to witness (can we support even) yet more mass immigration?
the point is WE HAVE to maintain some semblance of cultural cohesion. this is not the case in japan - i don't see no notting hill carnival for starters.
i don't think we are particularly nationalistic with regard to supporting national sports teams. sports is one area where patriotism is healthy anyway.
Last edited by hentaigaijin on Tue May 29, 2007 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hentaigaijin
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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"Not for the first time, I found myself thinking that it is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life, not the other way around." - David Cameron
'To make men love their country,' said Edmund Burke, 'their country ought to be lovable.'
AS LONG AS I GET A NICE RUBY MURRAY OUT OF IT I'M AS HAPPY AS A PIG IN SH*T.
i love curry.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2078446,00.html |
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zorro (3)
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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There is a test Hentaigaijin.
I'm not sure that Cameron's interest in cohesion is a clear example of British people becoming global patriots, but I do think that (like you) cohesion is a very important aspect within multi-cultural Britain. In fact, one of the justifications of the citizen test is to aid cohesion - immigrants will be able to function in society, they will know how to pay a phone bill and they will have enough language skills to take up a cleaning job (where is the mop? which bins shall I empty? etc).
Perhaps I'm just demonstrating my naive cynicism. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Quote:
I'm saying that it's noticeable because in most people on these board's home countries, white people are NOT discriminated against.
GA posted
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| I would disagree. Certainly I have seen some discrimination in my home country the US, but I have seen much more in Asia in general. |
markle posted
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| Umm you're actually agreeing, he's saying that most of the people on this board are white, middle class men who are by and large the least exposed to any kind of discrimination back home. |
No, I am disagreeing with the bolded part, that white people are not discriminated aganist in their home countries. I would say in my case it doesn't happen often, but it does happen, just not on the regular basis like it happens here. Sorry if that wasn't clear the first time through.  |
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