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My school�s ethics � or lack of them.
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chia48



Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Jiangsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:04 am    Post subject: My school's ethics - or lack of them Reply with quote

Hi Jeff, I think I know where you are. In every dreary detail, it sounds like the college where I taught last semester.

In that college, there is an english proficiency test in 2nd year, required by the Canadian partner university. Students who fail are given a chance to take a remedial class and give it another try -- fair enough, that was my job. What I didn't realize though is that the college will do anything to keep all the students going through the programme, dodging the rules and standards set by the Canadian side. What they did to us was pressure us to change our grades after the fact. My colleague and I both had around 50% passing (btw this is an extremely easy test). After submitting our grades we were summoned to a meeting with the dean and told our results were 'not good for the stability of the programme'. Stability of cash flow is what they must be thinking about, not about academic standards ! We were pressured in various ways: we must have had favourites, what about this guy, or that one, they do very well in other courses .... ie. we must be wrong about our grades. But we refused to change any of them. After the meeting we found a horde of these failed students waiting for us in the hallway, looking expectant ... they knew what was going on and fully expected us to cave.

Well we didn't cave, but now we have both left, as nearly all FTs do after one or two semesters, so it's highly likely all the students have been moved on to upper level classes. While the school has a policy of keeping all students, it wants to keep a constant turnover of teachers.
So that the new FTs have no idea that a significant number of their students, at all levels, may have never passed a single test!

There are some bright kids in that programme. Some, I suspect, couldn't deal with the stress of the college entrance test, but they do fine, they are good students. Others may have learning disabilities that are unrecognized. Some students show the effects of too much pressure in high school, they seem burned out, or they are addicted to computer games, angry at parents who have neglected them while devoting themselves to making money. The saddest cases of all are the ones whose parents will not acknowledge that their only child lacks any intellectual ability. They think all problems can be solved with money -- like buying a diploma for their kid who desperately wants to be somewhere else.

But not all the kids are rich. I think there are some families making huge sacrifices to get their kid an education, and it could be worthwhile with all the FTs there, they get plenty of exposure to English. Too bad that 'stability of the college' doesn't mean keeping a few of those FTs around longer.
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upchuckles



Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rooster Wrote:
Quote:
As for copyrights in China, just because according to US or British copyright law, copying something is illegal, doesn't mean that those laws apply in the sovereign country of China!


What world do you live in? Maybe they don't teach this in your korean classroom but do you know what ISBN stands for? Look it up on wikipedia.. then turn to the back page of the last textbook you purchased..
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

upchuckles wrote:
Rooster Wrote:
Quote:
As for copyrights in China, just because according to US or British copyright law, copying something is illegal, doesn't mean that those laws apply in the sovereign country of China!


What world do you live in? Maybe they don't teach this in your korean classroom but do you know what ISBN stands for? Look it up on wikipedia.. then turn to the back page of the last textbook you purchased..
Okay, then don't copy a textbook if your school asks you to. See if they get irritated. Just flat out refuse, and quote international law in a "just for your information" tone. If they get irritated and fire you, maybe I'll be the one that pulls up and takes your job. Because whether the law technically exists or not, the reality is that you're more likely to die in a plane crash on the way over to China than get busted in China for breaking a copyright law.

I also love this opinion espoused by you and "Worldly" that my education in Korea has "shielded" me. Are you and Worldly such rednecks to believe that studying in a foreign country for an extended period of time "dumbs you down?" I mean, seriously, I think most sane, rational human beings would look at the fact that I've done my education in a total of three different countries to give me a stronger perspective, not a weaker one.

Oh, and three years of my international education was in Hong Kong, where we learned that copyright laws mean jack squat in all territories controlled by China. So THERE.


Last edited by Rooster_2006 on Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Uncle Vinnie



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about "WTO" membership requirements?
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Rooster_2006



Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are quoting laws that are technically on the books, but that few Chinese people care about. If there's a law that you can be beheaded for jaywalking and nobody enforces it, you can jaywalk.
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Uncle Vinnie



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 100

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way, you're advocating "breaking the law". The law that China agreed to enforce while so proudly accepting membership in the WTO.

I'm so happy, here's the reason why - I'm the original Rooster!
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OGFT



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Let there be no doubt in your mind the IPR Police would love to make an example of a foreign teacher breaking the IPR law, and publicizing it in every foreign newspaper and media outlet.


In Shanghai, an American was arrested for distributing DvDs, in turned and later deported to the US. This investigation was directed at the request of the US.

Does anyone have the actually law in China regarding IPR and any information as to whether or not a text book is under that laws protection.
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danielb



Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Article Three of the Provisions on the Implementation of International Copyright Treaties (Decree no. 105 of the State Council of the PRC) ratifies the Berne Convention. Article 2 of the Berne Convention covers text books except those relating to legislation which rely on country specific legislation.
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OGFT



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it , this convention states that it will a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to determine the extent of the application of their laws as to copywrite.
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danielb



Joined: 08 Aug 2003
Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only for certain types of work. Otherwise, it sets minimums to be applied and it is up to the member states if they make their own provisions more stringent. There are certain conditions under which developing countries can breach the minimums.
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clark.w.griswald



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGFT wrote:
Quote:
Let there be no doubt in your mind the IPR Police would love to make an example of a foreign teacher breaking the IPR law, and publicizing it in every foreign newspaper and media outlet.


In Shanghai, an American was arrested for distributing DvDs, in turned and later deported to the US. This investigation was directed at the request of the US.


Distributing? Just so that we are clear on this one Randy was selling them on a website to customers in the US and other countries and made hundreds of thousands of USD before getting arrested. He was imprisoned in China, did his time, was deported back to the US, where he was arrested there and to my knowledge imprisoned back there also. Perhaps he is still in prison.

I am not suggesting that it is okay to copy texts for use in class but it is hardly comparable to setting up a business selling copyright DVD's!
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OGFT



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 432

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not suggesting that it is okay to copy texts for use in class but it is hardly comparable to setting up a business selling copyright DVD's!


Clark, again you jump into hyperbole. No one has suggested that copying text is comparable to setting up a business, which by the way was done with he help of two Chinese partners. Randy claimed that he never sold the DvDs and it was his Chinese partners who actually were pirating that end of the business. Work on you honesty Clark.
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clark.w.griswald



Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OGFT wrote:
Quote:
I am not suggesting that it is okay to copy texts for use in class but it is hardly comparable to setting up a business selling copyright DVD's!


Clark, again you jump into hyperbole. No one has suggested that copying text is comparable to setting up a business, which by the way was done with he help of two Chinese partners. Randy claimed that he never sold the DvDs and it was his Chinese partners who actually were pirating that end of the business. Work on you honesty Clark.


OGFT I am not sure why you are always so defensive. You injected an example of sales of copyright material into a discussion about usage of copyright material. I merely pointed out the major discrepancy there.

But lets consider the honesty angle since you suggest that I am being less than honest.

You used the word 'distribute' and for anyone not familiar with the case that could of course suggest a situation similar to what is being discussed here as far as a teacher in a classroom distributing at no profit copied material to his or her students.

I use the word 'sell' as I believe it to be more accurate in the case that you mention, and also to help remove any confusion as to how that case relates to the question of using copyrighted text in classes.

Clearly the two are very, very different situations and for you to link the two in such an amibigious manner is to my mind being less than honest.

As to Randy's claim about not being guilty well courts in both China and the US found him guilty. Everyone who knew the guy knows that he was guilty as he started out selling to expats within China and then moved onto bigger and more profitable markets overseas. But if you want to play blindman on this then that's okay with me!

However this thread is not about Randy and his DVD's which is why I clarified the situation after your original post about this.

I would think that it would not be too difficult to find cases of individuals being imprisoned for profiting from the sale of copied goods, but how many people have been imprisoned for using copied materials? That does not make it right - but lets put this in honest perspective.
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loboman



Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Despite all my rage I'm still just a rat in a cage...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but how many people have been imprisoned for using copied materials?


Maybe the Op does not want to be the first to have that honor in China?

A yank tried in China for an international crime that can be based by his own countries cry for justice and protection?

Don't you think the Chinese government would love to print that story quickly?
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