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jonniboy
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 751
Location: Panama City, Panama
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 Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Kootvela wrote: |
| So WHAT? That's our politics. Double standards or not, this is OUR politics. Cry about that if you want to. Why don't you see refusing to learn the language of the country one has been born into for the third generation as double standards: want a citizenship but don't want to learn the language? THAT is double standards, too! |
For the simple reason that I believe in multicultural, multilingual countries. In the era of globalisation and international mobility, the model of monoethnic, monolingual states is a bit outdated in the 21st century don't you think?
Also pretending that you live in a monoethnic state when really you don't, just isn't realpolitik. |
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GF
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Tallinn
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| jonniboy wrote: |
| Kootvela wrote: |
| So WHAT? That's our politics. Double standards or not, this is OUR politics. Cry about that if you want to. Why don't you see refusing to learn the language of the country one has been born into for the third generation as double standards: want a citizenship but don't want to learn the language? THAT is double standards, too! |
For the simple reason that I believe in multicultural, multilingual countries. In the era of globalisation and international mobility, the model of monoethnic, monolingual states is a bit outdated in the 21st century don't you think?
Also pretending that you live in a monoethnic state when really you don't, just isn't realpolitik. |
Multiculturalism is not 'in' anymore. Look at what is happening all across Europe with stronger requirements for citizenship and a stronger emphasis on assimilation. |
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GF
Joined: 08 Jun 2003
Posts: 238
Location: Tallinn
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jonniboy wrote: |
| GF wrote: |
| I bet you wouldn't dare to tell blacks in America to get over slavery and all of the discrimination and humiliations they suffered up until the 1960s because now they have all the rights and privilages that whites do. |
If it extended to discriminating against white people or telling them to "go back home" to places that they'd never even set foot in then yes I would as I've done very similar in my hometown of Belfast. I had four of my family murdered during the conflict there - two by the British army and my great gran and cousin burnt to a crisp in their beds purely for living in the wrong area, not to mention the endless harassment I had to put up with from the British army for walking about in my own area and all of this was a bit less than 17 years ago. But do I go banging on about the past or telling the protestants that they should "go back home" or learn Irish? Nope as I believe that blaming ordinary people for the misdeeds of governments many decades ago and dwelling in the past doesn't solve anything but only achieves the opposite = continued resentment. Didn't your gran ever tell you that two wrongs don't make a right? |
Nobody blames ordinary people here for the sins of the past. They just want them to follow the law of the land (which EVERY country on the earth expects) and yes, assimilate. How can local Russians expect to get good jobs when they cannot speak the language of the country they live in? The ones who do learn the language do far better than those who do not because they have so many more options available to them.
BTW, Russia has a four-century tradition of invading and controlling Estonia, and the aggressive rhetoric of Russian politicians truly alarms many people here. Most Estonians believe Russia would invade the country again in a heartbeat if not for its NATO membership. |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Right. I feel we can close this discussion as I believe all parties have said what they wanted. We cannot convince people who favour Russia because they have no idea of what was the occupation like and what its impacts are. All they know is from TV and books, their own reality is very different (why does Belfast matter to me over here?) |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Kootvela wrote: |
| Right. I feel we can close this discussion as I believe all parties have said what they wanted. We cannot convince people who favour Russia because they have no idea of what was the occupation like and what its impacts are. All they know is from TV and books, their own reality is very different (why does Belfast matter to me over here?) |
Hey, I favor Russia, although probably not in the way that you mean.
I could really take comments like "outdated" to town.
Somehow Mark Twain's "Connecticut Yankee" was full of ironic comments like that. How on earth can a people's desire to be the masters of their own land and to preserve their own cultural traditions that are largely native to that land be "outdated"? What on earth does that really mean?
If anybody here has ever read Larry Niven and his Ringworld/Louis Wu novels, where the entire earth is an identical bland multicultural global no-difference-anywhere kind of place...where would tourists go? At least in Niven's books they could go intergalactic.
The most endangered thing in this world is the right of a person to NOT be multicultural if they so choose. Globalization and pluralism serve empires - that's why they are pushed in public education, and that's why Stalin pushed it in his regime. Goes back to Prussia and Frederick "the Mediocre". It's why America acts like a global empire now rather than like a prosperous nation of hard-working farmers that can defend themselves.
That said, I'll concede that if people (Russians, in this case) really are there to stay, then both Russians and Baltic folk ought to work on peaceful co-existence and a little compromise where reasonable and in proportion to their presence (ie; 50 immigrants do not a significant community make). |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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I wish you stopped using 'high words' because they don't work. Speak a simple language, please, your posts are too long-winded to read to the end.
More info on why Lithuanians don't favour Russians:
http://irzikevicius.wordpress.com/2008/06/15/june-14-1940-why-the-russians-should-apologies/
Though our politicians try to erase that from people's memory by 'let bygones be bygones and look how much oil they have!' it also does not work. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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??? What "high" words? 
If you think I'm long-winded, you should see (G.K.) Chesterton.
Unfortunately, to fend off responses you can see coming a mile off, you gotta cover all your bases. I don't see how you could read books if a few short paragraphs seems long-winded.
I doubt you intended to be insulting (especially given that I was backing you up), and neither do I aim to offend. |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I read only those books that interest me. I advice you look up some guide of good manners, too. You have not proven your point, whatever that was. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Kootvela wrote: |
| I read only those books that interest me. I advice you look up some guide of good manners, too. You have not proven your point, whatever that was. |
I think you are taking some kind of offense based on not understanding what I was saying. My apologies. I am not modifying my writing for non-native speakers - the general assumptions of my posts assume an essentially native understanding of English/American culture and language.
Larry Niven is fairly well-known even outside his field - science fiction. As for Mark Twain - hope I don't need to say anything about that.
To take a comment to town (or the cleaners) means to rip it apart, show all of its weaknesses, in this case jonniboy's idea that Baltic nationalism is 'outdated'.
My point was in defending the right of Baltic peoples to preserve their own cultures in the face of multi-ethnic onslaught, in other words, defending your point.
I hope this makes my posts a little clearer ( and also that my manners are not lacking!  )
If you don't understand something that I say, feel free to ask! |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| I can read, thank you. |
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oxi
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 347
Location: elsewhere
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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We did not discuss Jewish dual citizenship here, if you would just bother to read the whole thread. So I think it's fair people staid where they belong.
Plus, the website about killing Jews you gave is one-sided. There are many documents in the archives throwing a different light on what really happened. But that belongs to the State Archive to explain, not to me. Also, why don't you look up the material where Lithuanian people hid Jewish people and saved from the Nazi? So, do your homework! |
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oxi
Joined: 16 Apr 2007
Posts: 347
Location: elsewhere
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Kootvela,
I got interested as my wife's Russian and I'm pretty sure she hasn't killed any Lithuanians lately.
I understand what happened in Lithuania, obviously not as well as you.
I saw museums about what the Russians did.
I saw museums about what Lithuanians did to Jews.
Ok, maybe an unfair link and I know I haven't done all my homework.
I just thought it might be a bit unfair that you seem to be implying all Russians should get out of Lithuania because of what happened before. Or did I misinterpret? |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Which museum was that which showed what Lithuanians did to the Jews? |
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Kootvela
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Posts: 513
Location: Lithuania
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| oxi wrote: |
Hi Kootvela,
I just thought it might be a bit unfair that you seem to be implying all Russians should get out of Lithuania because of what happened before. Or did I misinterpret? |
You did. I said IF they aren't happy with what they get in a country of their residence, they can leave. Isn't that just logical? Why stay and suffer? |
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