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| Are the times achanging in the Kingdom |
| No way!! Same as it ever was. |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| You bet! The Kingdom's rushing into the 15th century. |
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20% |
[ 2 ] |
| Slowly, slowly catchee monkey. |
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70% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Most westerner�s picture of Saudi life is �drawn� from his/ her own personal bias and background and �colored in� by his/her superficial experiences in KSA.
Unless one is married to a Saudi, I doubt he or she will truly have much understanding of the Saudi psyche. Even then, the chances are slim.
Is it enough to have polite conversations (in English) with Saudis and read third hand information from the newspapers to presume one is in the know about how life in KSA has progressed?
Yes Cleo�that includes me, just another white western male ESL teacher trying to foist his dubious critical thinking notions onto the poor unsuspecting Saudi students  |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Is it enough to have polite conversations (in English) with Saudis and read third hand information from the newspapers to presume one is in the know about how life in KSA has progressed? |
It is certainly not enough to make one any kind of 'expert' on Saudi society, but I would say that we as teachers have a much better insight into the above than the vast majority of 'expats', many of whom do not have anything but the most superficial of interactions with Saudis.
I also very definately believe that we are in a better position to offer commentary on Saudi society than those "Western" journalists who are flown over here on one-week junkets, in order to have inane interviews with handpicked, English speaking professionals in Jeddah and Riyadh, before flying home to churn out dull opinion pieces on how Saudi society is 'changing'. Yawn! |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Yep were a step up from foreign journalists that really speaks volumes, doesn't it? |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Actually, 'trapezius', in order for readers to obtain a truly sophisticated and in-depth knowledge of "Saudi women's lives" what they really need to hear about is all the hundreds of Saudi women you come across. |
Hahaha... I didn't even take your name, and here you come, barging in, within half an hour... perhaps your colleagues at the CPVPV informed you of my nefarious post?! 
Anyway, you want a story? I will tell you a story that one of my female MBA students just told me on Sunday, yes, just 2 days ago.
She was married off at the age of 14, and had a kid at 15. She was divorced at the age of 21, and the ex-husband took the son away. She is 31 now, and her son is 16 years old, and she has had no contact whatsoever with her son for the past 6 years. All she could tell me was that they are somewhere in Florida. What state, what school, phone numbers, email addresses, nothing. Not even names, as the father has changed the son's name.
I asked her to give me as much info as possible, and any pictures. I will try to trace her son, so at least she can email him.
Happy? Want more stories? I have more, several more. From real Saudi women, not only the privileged ones you come across.
Here is another one, a lot more painful:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=119221&d=15&m=2&y=2009
Did you even read it?  And there are thousands of such stories, some truly horrifying. These are not outliers. Definately not 
| cmp45 wrote: |
Unless one is married to a Saudi, I doubt he or she will truly have much understanding of the Saudi psyche. Even then, the chances are slim.
Is it enough to have polite conversations (in English) with Saudis and read third hand information from the newspapers to presume one is in the know about how life in KSA has progressed? |
Count me out of that one. I don't just have polite conversations with Saudis. I also have real heart to heart conversations with many Saudis, of many ages, and both genders. Have had them for more than 5 years. It is amazing the things they can say when you take them into confidence! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Hahaha... I didn't even take your name, and here you come, barging in, within half an hour... perhaps your colleagues at the CPVPV informed you of my nefarious post?! |
You seem to have gotton quite a thrill out of my reply, but do untwist your k******s. I'm only 'allowed' to respond to posts where you mention me by name (mind you, that does happen often enough as to not rule out too many threads)?
| Quote: |
Happy? Want more stories? I have more, several more. From real Saudi women, not only the privileged ones you come across. |
Privileged, like the sort of Saudi women who study for MBAs with male teachers, you mean?
Anyway, this is really getting quite tedious, trapezius.
Fact of the matter is you have no idea what sort of Saudi women I have met in my several years working with them in various institutions serving various different kinds of women. I can however, state with a very considerable degree of certainty that I have had access to a far wider cross-section of Saudi women than you can ever hope to have. If you really think I need you - or the Snooze - as a source of anecdotes about the realities of Saudi women's lives, you are being rather silly. I hear more such anecdotes first-hand in a week than most male posters have heard in their lives. Not that I have to rely on such snippets of information, since my work as a teacher does allow me to gain insight into these women's lives in a far more interesting way than reading the latest stories the Saudi censors want you to know about on any particular day.
So keep repeating your little anecdotes if it makes you feel better (or should I say bitter?) But please don't think you are telling me anything I don't already know. |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| trapezius wrote: |
| cmp45 wrote: |
Unless one is married to a Saudi, I doubt he or she will truly have much understanding of the Saudi psyche. Even then, the chances are slim.
Is it enough to have polite conversations (in English) with Saudis and read third hand information from the newspapers to presume one is in the know about how life in KSA has progressed? |
Count me out of that one. I don't just have polite conversations with Saudis. I also have real heart to heart conversations with many Saudis, of many ages, and both genders. Have had them for more than 5 years. It is amazing the things they can say when you take them into confidence! |
That's great trapezius you are able to have deep and meaningful conversations...however your focus on the tragic stories denotes a one sided flawed argument.
What about the happy success stories...guess those ones are too boring and mundane to focus on. I am in no way dismissing the tragic circumstances of those Saudi women you have encountered.
Just stating that Saudi life is not always about desperate gloomy senarios and circumstances; not all Saudis' lives are so tragic as you seem to suggest. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if anything can be judged by an avatar (and that's admittedly risky at best), trapezius does seem to have something of an attraction to situations in which pain is inflicted.
Regards,
John |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well, John, since you are the superman of Uncle Obama, why not rescue trapezius from his pains?
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| [She was married off at the age of 14, and had a kid at 15. |
Well, in UK, some teenagers had kids at 13 and they are not even married!! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 007,
I learned a long time ago that the only person who can truly rescue someone is him/herself.
Regards,
John |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is human nature to focus on human suffering and misery...perhaps it just stands out more.
Of course these miserable situations regarding human rights within the Kingdom commands more of our attention ... there is a need to have compassion and work towards solutions. However, this is a Saudi problem and only they will manage, over time, to overcome them.
kudos to you Trapezius, Cleo and others that have managed to explore beyond the surface with regards to making a real connection with the local population...you are richer for it. |
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Neil McBeath
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 277
Location: Saudi Arabia
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: the times they are achanging |
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| Thank you so much Scott. I couldn't remember if "The Green Truth" was the Arab News or the Saudi Gazette. THat was why I used a question mark. |
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