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mimi_intheworld
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 167
Location: UAE
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 Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:43 am Post subject: |
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I still don't know that my MA made me a better teacher (as it wasn't an MA in teaching), but it certainly made me a better-rounded (no, not just physically!) person. My MA was in Intercultural Studies - which, I must say, has stood me in good stead as I teach and work in discrete cultural settings. But once again, I emphasise: I got my MA because I wanted to. Not with any professional goal in mind. That is precisely the same reason I haven't done my PhD. Any interest I had in pursuing my chosen subject even further kind of died in the process of researching it. Perhaps when I find a renewed vigor for my research, I'll go back. Until then, well, whatever.
Not that my experience is universal, of course. But another aspect of the post-grad degree debate is the question of finance. In the US, at least, university is expensive, post-grad studies doubly (sometimes prohibitively)
so. And the financial return on those studies does not always pan out. |
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Reine Lierre
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| artemisia wrote: |
| Surely all educators should be promoting the value of higher education? |
I think the problem is that value of that higher education may not be what we think it is.
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Reine Lierre�s post:
I don�t usually read the NYT but I looked for this article as I couldn�t access it through the address given. |
My apologies. I'm new here, and still figuring things out -- thanks for giving a better link. 
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| However, (school) teachers are not unaware of research despite what R. A Bjork believes. |
My step-mother (a special-education reading teacher in upstate NY) and all of her colleagues -- who are mandated by state law to undergo constant continuing education -- were shocked by this. So much so that they just didn't believe it, and don't plan on incorporating any of their recommendations. My Chinese colleagues were far more receptive. |
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Reine Lierre
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
| Reine Lierre wrote: |
| Then where are the practicums? Undergrad education majors have, at best, one or two semesters of student teaching. MAs? I haven't heard of any, at least not in my country. |
In my MA TESOL program, we had a 1-semester supervised practicum that everyone had to complete. For that, we taught classes of about 30 students, 2x a week for 2 hours each class, and had to design every bit of the course ourselves (no textbook, no materials provided). In addition, about half of us also taught at the university's intensive English program (2 classes, 8 total contact hours per week, EAP) for the duration of our 2-year MA program, and some people adjuncted in the summer for extra income. This was in the US. |
Fair enough. Do you know how common they are? Among other things, I have an epi background, so anecdotes aren't terribly persuasive.
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| Oh, and I did feel like my MA program made me a better teacher. It gave me both practical courses (e.g., L2 assessment, CALL, L2 teaching methods) and theory courses, (SLA, L2 psycholinguistics) which I could then apply to my own teaching (which they provided me with). Does a MA guarantee that someone will be a good teacher? Of course not. Will a serious teacher benefit from a good MA program? Definitely. |
Feeling like you became a better teacher does not guarantee you actually became a better one. It doesn't matter what type of courses they gave you -- the only way to determine it is by doing more rigorous analysis.
I really wonder whether EFL is in the same position as psychotherapy. Epidemiologists -- which is one of the two things I'm in grad school for -- have known since the 1950s that psychotherapy is nothing more than the placebo effect. (See, e.g., Rosenthal and Frank, 1956.) Serious people go to psychology programs and really think that the programs make them good psychologists. The problem is that the evidence just doesn't support how good they actually feel about the quality of their educations and, for that matter, the value of their field. I'm just wondering what the evidence actually is on this front and if it actually holds up under rigorous scrutiny. |
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Reine Lierre
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Professor wrote: |
| rtm wrote: |
| Reine Lierre wrote: |
| Then where are the practicums? Undergrad education majors have, at best, one or two semesters of student teaching. MAs? I haven't heard of any, at least not in my country. |
In my MA TESOL program, we had a 1-semester supervised practicum that everyone had to complete. For that, we taught classes of about 30 students, 2x a week for 2 hours each class, and had to design every bit of the course ourselves (no textbook, no materials provided). In addition, about half of us also taught at the university's intensive English program (2 classes, 8 total contact hours per week, EAP) for the duration of our 2-year MA program, and some people adjuncted in the summer for extra income.
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BOOM!! Thank you. |
What's with the "BOOM!'s"? I never said it was impossible -- I just said I hadn't heard of it. Read a bit more closely next time; you won't sound like a drunken teenager.
Mimi:
| mimi_intheworld wrote: |
| I still don't know that my MA made me a better teacher (as it wasn't an MA in teaching), but it certainly made me a better-rounded (no, not just physically!) person. My MA was in Intercultural Studies - which, I must say, has stood me in good stead as I teach and work in discrete cultural settings. But once again, I emphasise: I got my MA because I wanted to. Not with any professional goal in mind. |
Co-signed -- again. I think that most of the value of a MA is that it keeps your joy of learning alive so that you can pass it on to your students.
(Oddly, epi/biostats MPHs are also very heavily focused on intercultural studies, and specifically medical anthropology, issues. To be honest, I really want to drop the other half of my grad degree and get a Ph.D in med anthro. But I digress.)
| Quote: |
Not that my experience is universal, of course. But another aspect of the post-grad degree debate is the question of finance. In the US, at least, university is expensive, post-grad studies doubly (sometimes prohibitively)
so. And the financial return on those studies does not always pan out. |
The trick in the sciences is to apply for a Ph.D. and then bow out before your orals. In hard sciences, the uni almost always pays for your MA and Ph.D. in exchange for TA and RA work. I don't know if you can do that humanities, though.  |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Reine Lierre wrote: |
Fair enough. Do you know how common they are? Among other things, I have an epi background, so anecdotes aren't terribly persuasive.
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From what I understand, such programs are not so rare in the US (where there is actual teaching involved in the MA program via a practicum and/or an intensive ESL program). Though, of course, I have not done a full analysis of every MA TESOL/AL/Ling/Ed. program in the world, or even in one specific country, so I cannot say with any certainty whatsoever.
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| Feeling like you became a better teacher does not guarantee you actually became a better one. It doesn't matter what type of courses they gave you -- the only way to determine it is by doing more rigorous analysis. |
Fair enough - maybe it did only make me 'feel' like I am a better teacher. Though, I can say that I can now teach classes that I had no idea how to go about teaching before, and I can develop my lessons based on theory and research findings, which I couldn't do before (yes, I know, more anecdotes...)
I'm really not sure how you would rigorously analyze the effects of an MA TESOL program anyway. How would one measure a teacher's effectiveness? Student scores? Hello, NCLB.
I did receive evaluations of my teaching over the course of my MA program, and they improved, as did the evaluations of most of the other students in my program (though that, too, is a flawed measurement, obviously). Really, I think that my own evaluation of my teaching as far as my ability to teach using methods that are based on SLA theory is probably the best measuring stick, for myself.
I am curious, though... how would you suggest one empirically and experimentally measure 'improvement' in teaching due to an MA program? |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| Reine Lierre wrote: |
| Quote: |
Not that my experience is universal, of course. But another aspect of the post-grad degree debate is the question of finance. In the US, at least, university is expensive, post-grad studies doubly (sometimes prohibitively)
so. And the financial return on those studies does not always pan out. |
The trick in the sciences is to apply for a Ph.D. and then bow out before your orals. In hard sciences, the uni almost always pays for your MA and Ph.D. in exchange for TA and RA work. I don't know if you can do that humanities, though. |
Yes, you can. Again, how common it is, I don't know, and I don't have any hard facts to back it up. From my experience and observations, however, just as you said about the hard sciences, for Ph.D.s in humanities also, the university almost always pays (tuition+stipend) in exchange for RA/TA work, and this is sometimes an option for MA also (but less common). |
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Reine Lierre
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
| I'm really not sure how you would rigorously analyze the effects of an MA TESOL program anyway. How would one measure a teacher's effectiveness? Student scores? Hello, NCLB. |
NCLB is flawed and dreadful, but student scores on non-school tests (e.g., exams to qualify for employment at a firm like Goldman Sachs or government administered exams like China's College English Test 4) are probably the place I'd start. They don't care about teacher performance.
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| I did receive evaluations of my teaching over the course of my MA program, and they improved, as did the evaluations of most of the other students in my program (though that, too, is a flawed measurement, obviously). |
It sounds like they wanted you to feel like you were getting what you paid for. Businesses do this all the time.
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| I am curious, though... how would you suggest one empirically and experimentally measure 'improvement' in teaching due to an MA program? |
Good question, and I don't know enough about education theories to be able to answer that. Can you give me a quick overview about different ESL/EFL theories? I know that there's this linguist they love in China who thinks you just need to listen to English and then you can speak it. My kids grew up with that, and they can't say a goddamn word. I also know there's another linguist who opposes him and thinks you actually need to practice using the language, but the Chinese are only just starting to warm up to his views. (Chinese education is very big on rote memorization, so any theory that actually encourages kids to talk in class tends to be frowned upon. They're only going with it because US businesses are demanding better oral English skills.)
I would probably start with tuition rates, though. Most education in the US is paid for by the student, and that makes most people feel like they become better teachers -- even when they're not. So that would definitely be one of my first variables. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I haven't been following this thread too closely, BUT, I don't think that everyone should get a master. It would just be more competitive and drive down salaries for those of us who have them. I'm not saying it's a good idea. It's just not for everyone and I'm happy that with Two MAs, I've got a competivie bump over those who don't   |
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artemisia
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
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rtm:
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| I am curious, though... how would you suggest one empirically and experimentally measure 'improvement' in teaching due to an MA program? |
Reine Lierre:
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| Good question, and I don't know enough about education theories to be able to answer that. ..... I would probably start with tuition rates, though. Most education in the US is paid for by the student, and that makes most people feel like they become better teachers -- even when they're not. So that would definitely be one of my first variables. |
I can�t see how improvement of teaching ability pre and post MA (assuming one was already a teacher prior to the course) can be accurately measured in a scientific sense. This is true of much of what comes under Faculty of Arts courses. How does a post-grad student completing a Ph.D in Art History or History demonstrate he or she can lecture better than before? Certainly pure knowledge will have been increased but does that automatically amount to the effective transmission of that knowledge? Again it would be measured by results, student, peer and supervisor feedback and observations as well as the ongoing requirement for research and publications. I�ve never come across the idea in other academic areas that there�s no particular need to pursue further advanced degrees because enhanced teaching/ lecturing skills at a tertiary level cannot be measured scientifically. Perhaps this is because such subjects already enjoy full academic status, unlike ESOL.
Although I believe knowledge and understanding of theory leads to the application of that theory, thereby enhancing practice, I don�t see the acquisition of knowledge as always being immediate or obvious. In some ways learning a language is similar to this, as I know from my own experience of language learning and also learning in other areas. Sometimes you realise you know something, but you aren�t certain or can�t remember how you acquired that knowledge. I can�t pinpoint when I suddenly (it seemed sudden to me) started being able to speak in another language without feeling I was struggling and tripping over every word � it just �happened� but I didn�t consciously think being able to do that until later. What was sudden was the realisation I had sub-consciously made some sort of transition. I�ve had discussions with friends about this � how we sometimes find ourselves doing something or how we have the ability to pull information up out of (seemingly) nowhere � that we hadn�t actively processed and analysed as knowing we knew it! (If that makes any sense!).
Pursuing further or higher education is about actively engaging in learning and processing information but IMO not all the knowledge acquired will be immediately accessible or assessable, however expensive that education may have been.
naturegirt321:
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| BUT, I don't think that everyone should get a master. It would just be more competitive and drive down salaries for those of us who have them. |
Maybe but then there's always the chance it would raise the status of English teaching and therefore salaries and conditions. No, hang on! I'm mixing up reality and my utopian dream! |
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Reine Lierre
Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
| I am curious, though... how would you suggest one empirically and experimentally measure 'improvement' in teaching due to an MA program? |
Reine Lierre:
| Quote: |
| Good question, and I don't know enough about education theories to be able to answer that. ..... I would probably start with tuition rates, though. Most education in the US is paid for by the student, and that makes most people feel like they become better teachers -- even when they're not. So that would definitely be one of my first variables. |
| artemisia wrote: |
| : I can�t see how improvement of teaching ability pre and post MA (assuming one was already a teacher prior to the course) can be accurately measured in a scientific sense. |
Spoken like someone from a humanities background.
If you were already a teacher before enrolling in the MA, then any difference in the students outcomes would be due to the MA. (DIGRESSION ALERT. Controlling for differences in students' backgrounds', of course. My preferred way of doing that is to have a homogenous student population in the first place; I despise artifical retroactive controls. They work and they're theoretically sound in mathematical senses, but reality is fundamentally qualitative, not quantative. It's why I'm epi and not biostats. But I digress.)
Let me phrase it another way because (a) I've had one of wine, (b) it's 12:00 a.m. in China, and (c) finals start tomorrow. Here's what you should do. You should take a group of teachers who want to take a MA course. Before they take the MA course, you have them teach a class of homogenous students and assess student outcomes in a number of areas, but most importantly their improvements in written and spoken English. You should also assess the students' feedback to the instructor pre- and post- MA on both quantative and qualitative feedback forms.
Expertise is related to sophistication and elegance in math, and since education theory isn't my area of expertise, I don't feel very comfortable coming up with anything more complex. Especially not while pleasantly buzzed. 
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| This is true of much of what comes under Faculty of Arts courses. How does a post-grad student completing a Ph.D in Art History or History demonstrate he or she can lecture better than before? |
They don't have to -- at least not in the US. All that matters is their ability to come up with and publish original research. Student feedback is considered irrelevant. It's why so many scientists are such shitty teachers. (Hell, most of the ones at my UG couldn't even speak English. It's why I switched majors.) They kept their jobs because their publications and Nobel Prizes helped my school skyrocket up the US News and World Report rankings.
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| Certainly pure knowledge will have been increased but does that automatically amount to the effective transmission of that knowledge? |
Yup. But these days we have Open Course Ware, so it doesn't really matter, does it? You just pay a school for a credenial for a job. 
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| Again it would be measured by results, student, peer and supervisor feedback and observations as well as the ongoing requirement for research and publications. I�ve never come across the idea in other academic areas that there�s no particular need to pursue further advanced degrees because enhanced teaching/ lecturing skills at a tertiary level cannot be measured scientifically. Perhaps this is because such subjects already enjoy full academic status, unlike ESOL. |
Or is it because ESOL is so geographically and institutionally dispersed? Alternatively, is it because the research is already incorporated into linguistics?
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| Although I believe knowledge and understanding of theory leads to the application of that theory, thereby enhancing practice, I don�t see the acquisition of knowledge as always being immediate or obvious. |
Oooohhh boy. The way they relate epi theory to practice is nothing like the way they relate applied linguistics theory to EFL practice. (At least from what I've seen from my friends' classes as I've scoured them for materials; I was a late addition.) There's a reason why SARS wasn't the 21st Century's Black Death but why I see signs like "Caution! Queen of Ivy!!"
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| Maybe but then there's always the chance it would raise the status of English teaching and therefore salaries and conditions. No, hang on! I'm mixing up reality and my utopian dream! |
Didn't work in American public schools. If you want more prestige, you need more men, a willingness to induce labor shortages to increase salaries, and an actual willingness to commit yourself to hard science to improve quality.
At least, that's what the history of professionalization that worked in the west suggests. (See, e.g. Rosemary Stevens, Charles Rosenberg, and Paul Starr.) |
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artemisia
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 875
Location: the world
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You should take a group of teachers who want to take a MA course. Before they take the MA course, you have them teach a class of homogenous students and assess student outcomes in a number of areas, but most importantly their improvements in written and spoken English. You should also assess the students' feedback to the instructor pre- and post- MA on both quantative and qualitative feedback forms. |
Hmm. But unlike controlled laboratory conditions, in terms of pre and post testing, that group of students would presumably not remain in an inanimate* state for the entire year or two years it takes to complete an MA - their spoken and written English suspended for that time. Their feedback would rely on accuracy of memory. Or rather would most likely be compromised by memory.
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| Student feedback is considered irrelevant. It's why so many scientists are such shitty teachers. |
Indeed. Spoken like someone from a medical/ science background.
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| If you want more prestige, you need more men, a willingness to induce labor shortages to increase salaries, and an actual willingness to commit yourself to hard science to improve quality. |
I don�t see ESOL teaching becoming a sought-after prestigious occupation no matter what �hard science� might be applied to it. Working for a university, however, automatically confers a certain amount of prestige � even if you�re not always seen as a �real� academic!
Now, I�ll leave you to commune with your wine (sounds like a good idea to me).
(*Though some teachers may feel they already have students in their classes permanently in this state).
Last edited by artemisia on Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| If someone is capable of completing a master's degree, they must have decent intelligence and work ethic. So why waste it on a pseudoscience? People can apply all the important-sounding words they want, and even talk about evidence-based this and that, but in their hearts ... what's that new outfit the emperor is wearing? |
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Professor
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 449
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| If someone is capable of completing a master's degree, they must have decent intelligence and work ethic. |
BOOM!
For sure more of a work ethic than getting a teaching certificate or paying almost 2,000 DOLLARS for some teacher training course. |
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mimi_intheworld
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 167
Location: UAE
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Professor wrote: |
| For sure more of a work ethic than getting a teaching certificate or paying almost 2,000 DOLLARS for some teacher training course. |
I paid 3,000 DOLLARS for my teacher training course, thanks.  |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Professor wrote: |
For sure more of a work ethic than getting a teaching certificate or paying almost 2,000 DOLLARS for some teacher training course. |
Why would you think that? Getting a teacher�s certification in the US ,that is, a 4 year degree with a semester (or more, depending on the state) of student teaching is also hard work, especially if you are placed in an inner-city, urban school. And don�t forget, classroom teachers have to take ongoing training in order to remain certified to teacher. Even though it might not be a Master�s on paper, after a while you�ve done as much work as you would have done for a Master�s. Not to mention the fact that the classes or workshops are often more rellevent than Mater�s courses, whichmay or may not be useful to you in the classroom. The single most useful class I ever took was just a CU given by a school district, but it focused on how to teach English to Spanish speakers (I was teaching Bi-lingual Education at the time). So I am not sure that more is better, but things that will help you do your job better certainly are. Aside from that, I think that reading and studying on your own can be just as helpful as taking a formal course, though you don�t have any �proof�that you learned anything. |
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