Job Discussion Forums

[ecocks]

Interesting thread which leaves me with only one question and a commentary:

Question: If things are really so uniformly dismal (as reading these threads would have us believe), then, other than the money motivation, how do the thousands of Brits, Yanks, Canucks, Kiwis and Aussies stand working in such an "insane" country? Personally, I know guys who have gone back willingly, even eagerly, including one with wife and children.

Commentary: I've never been to Saudi or any of the ME countries. I have however visited more than two dozen others, lived overseas for three years, accepted money in envelopes, gotten business visas, setup my own companies and such so I'm no babe in the woods when it comes to the concepts being discussed. I've also been in four US Embassies on various business activities and been acquainted with a dozen or so FSO personnel from different countries over the years.

That said, you can prattle all you wish about trying to game the system to get two passports, think about finagling an unused exit visa in one you keep, pretend you're some sort of expat mandarin, whatever, do all you want, but IF I wanted to bring this to a head I'd simply go to my Embassy (Brit, American, Canadian, whatever) and report that it was "lost/stolen" and being held by my employer. Let them fight the battle and sort it out. Short of getting 10,000 oil workers, TEFL teachers, military trainers and such together for a job action, it seems like the best bet to me.

I suspect one of two things would occur:

1. The Embassy, which represents the actual owner of that passport, has had this occur previously and knows what to do to get you a new one complete with a stamp to get you out of the country. Probably the political structures of our home countries and KSA want this downplayed and have the work-around procedure established. Yes, you may be effectively forced to quit your job and leave the country but maybe not. Maybe your employer just ends up holding a cancelled passport leaving you freedom to do what you wish. Either way, you are a citizen, you don't have custody of your passport and it's being held against your will as a form of security on a labor contract.

OR

2. They would intervene with the Saudi government and force the passport issue to be resolved at least for your particular situation, maybe system-wide IF it happens enough. Honestly though, I cannot imagine that this would be the first time this has been brought to the Embassy's attention (reference the twice-cited news article) and really believe they will have a procedure for issuing you your replacement.

Who knows? Maybe there's a third option. It's doubtful though that this is unique to the KSA. I know similar reports, much more isolated, have taken place in other countries, even inside the US for other nationals, and has always been determined to be a form of extortion. I'm confident that the US Embassy wouldn't leave a citizen who wanted to report the lost/stolen passport standing there without a resolution. Homeland Security and Congressional representatives would be involved and the administration simply doesn't want the publicity on niggling issues such as this one getting any press at all.

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

Saudi is through the looking glass - making comparisons with other places seldom works. It's all about wasta - how much clout/influence one has. The "law" doesn't really matter when wasta comes into play. And the embassies know that well.

You might want to check out this "cautionary tale" of sheiker, who had the "law" on his side. He ended up spending a fair amount of time in a Saudi looney bin.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=87466&highlight=sheiker

Regards.
John

[ecocks]

John:

Yes, I understand everywhere is different just don't believe it's THAT different inside the doors of the home Embassies. It has nothing to do with arrogance or naivete.

It also has nothing to do with Shieker, only the question of getting a second passport to replace the one held by an employer. I wouldn't call the police in the US if my employer refused to give me back my SS card, I'd simply go to the SSA office and get a new one.

None of what I would do has any bearing on the country I'm in (unless I was somewhere without a US Embassy).

Is it possible that the American staff soft-pedal on this when you walk in the door? Yes. Could I get a second passport issued, cancelling the first? I am absolutely certain that I would. I might have to leave KSA, lose my job, whatever, but I'd have one within the waiting period. I believe any Brit, Canadian or Aussie would too. It has nothing to do with Saudi, China, Japan, Ukraine or any other country's laws just my country's.

No comment on why people still go there when the reports seem so consistently negative? Money aside, is there any positive thing to be said about working there? It seems neither men nor women have a social life outside the compound, employers are more abusive than usual in the TEFL world and there is inherent danger of deportation, arrest and sundry other uncertainties at every turn. Sounds like total chaos.

Is it just the money or can anything else be presented as a positive about TEFL in the KSA?

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

In my experience, the American embassy cares little or nothing about the problems that an EFLer may encounter.

In Shiraz, Iran in 1978, the entire staff of the US consulate there decamped without letting any of us who'd registered there know about their departure.

In Riyadh, in 1991, when Saddam was threatening to send SCUDS our way, ones with chemical/biological warheads, the US embassy refused to issue gas masks. Every other embassy did so. Finally, after so many people complained to their representatives in Washington, they issued them - very reluctantly.

You may be right, but based on my experience in Saudi, I'd HATE to try to get a "second passport" issued. Telling them my employer was holding mine would probably ensure that I'd never get one. I might lie and say I lost it, but even then, hell might come close to freezing over before I ever got one.

Saudi can be tough - even if you have a good job and a good employer (and I did - I lasted there 19 years, not continuous, mind you. I took breaks in a vain attempt to preserve my sanity). If you're single, it can get achingly lonely at times. If you have your family, well, they're not going to be very happy there - women and children don't fare well in the Kingdom.

I liked my work, I had good bosses and colleagues, good housing, a tax-free salary, and the chance to see (on summer holidays) many lovely places I'd never have otherwise gotten to visit.

But there's no such thing as a free lunch - one way or another, you pay.

Regards,
John

[ecocks]

John, you may have had bad experiences at our Embassies, I haven't. Then again, I still haven't encountered a bad policeman in the US yet. In my experience they have no way of knowing whether you are an EFLer or the CEO of McDonalds Corporation in the country (uh all McDonalds are corporate-owned in Ukraine so sub in whatever fits your country) unless you're one of those self-important, jacked-up twits that has to tell everyone who you are.

I do know American citizens who have been refused service and permanently barred from entry to ACS and other nationals barred from their own embassies for consistently breaking the regulations. Since they were unreasonable, demanding and obnoxious at the schools and bars, I expect they were at Consular Services as well. Every country has them and they are an embarrassment to us all.

I know what I expect and don't expect from the American government. Handouts aren't on the list, replacement passports are.

Gas masks aren't replacement passports. I wouldn't have expected one from the Embassy but from my employer. That's a whole other discussion for another day.

My advice remains, go in, report it stolen and get a replacement if your employer holds yours. All that said, yes, I've given my passport to a foreign government ministry, received a stamped receipt and came back for it in a week when it was returned with the proper residency registration stamp. It was their stated procedure and the time limit was for processing, not storage or being held ransom. I've handed it across the counter when making ship, train and air reservations as well as check-ins, always receiving it back in a few moments at the most.

However, like Captain Whatsit (well, like him in some ways) I won't surrender custody of my passport on demand for holding to anyone except an American consular official. I'm scheduled for an interview this week with one of the companies that is reported to do this. They're getting a lot of bad press but if I go though with the interview, I'll make sure to bring it up and see how it goes.

I'll ask some of my friends who are military and government contractors if they have encountered this in the ME or elsewhere in Central Asia.

You say you had a good job and stood it for 19 years, what were your reasons(aside from money) for enjoying your "good" employer and returning after sanity breaks? Was the compound different than those oft-described by others? What sort of places did you find it easy to visit? Given the security situation in the world these days, I suspect you wouldn't be fazed if you put up with it through the first round of Saddam's silliness.

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

The fact remains that I have experience of Saudi and of the American embassy there while you don't'

I didn't live on a compound - which seemed fortuitous when they started bombing the compounds in 2003. My employer (the IPA) always treated me fairly, let teachers teach without looking over their shoulders, and actually listened to and acted upon complaints. My students were, for the most part, good to excellent.

What more could a teacher want?

What places did I find it easy to visit? Do you mean inside the Kingdom?

I was in Vietnam with the Marine Corps, in Iran before, during and after the "Islamic Revolution" there, and in Riyadh when we got SCUDDED. It takes a fair amount to faze me.

Advise away - however, I feel sorry for any individual in the Kingdom who takes your advice.

Regards,
John

[veiledsentiments]

The fact is that American Embassies around the Middle East are notorious for being as unhelpful as possible. In Egypt, they treated us like criminals if we merely needed a tax form.

I know other Americans who were abandoned by the US embassy in Iran and had to go to the British to get help to get out. The same thing happened in Cyprus when Turkey invaded. The US staff perhaps waved as they flew off, but all Americans again had to go to the British to get out.

In my years in the Gulf and Egypt, if I felt I needed help, the US Embassy would be about the last place that I would have gone.

In all the years of people being entrapped in Saudi because of exit visa issues and horrid employers refusing to hand over passport, never once has there even been a rumor of the US Embassy stepping in to help the teacher. In fact, there have been stories that the embassy refused to assist. We did have one woman once who said that the embassy got her an exit visa, but how could they? They are not the ones who hand them out.

That said... I stayed out of Saudi because of the stories I heard over the years. And while in other Gulf countries, I made sure that I chose my employers carefully, so I would never have to be disappointed by the actions of my embassy.

VS

[ecocks]

[veiledsentiments]

At least our stories are based on the negative experiences of people that we actually know.

But back to your topic of holding passports... this thread hits the nail on the head:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=94633

It lists what has happened to teachers in Saudi and matches what everyone has told me about their experience and the summary is:

If giving up your passport to your employer matters to you... don't get a job in Saudi Arabia.

Summary of this thread... don't expect your embassy to help at all as related to this. They haven't done so in Saudi (or in Oman when it has occurred there).

VS

[pandamall]

I needed more pages added to my passport before I left for Saudi at the wonderful JEC-PT in Jizan. I was told for over 2 months that I'd leave "next week" so I had to wait until I had a ticket to get the pages added in person. They recommended that I take 2 passports.

When the US Consulate came down to visit Jizan, they said we're so far south that no attempt would be made to evacuate us and good luck getting out. Jizan City is 40 miles above Yemen and before I left, we started seeing fighter planes and Apache helicopters at the "civilian" airport. That's probably the Saudi fight with the Houthi rebels. They were shelling the city in January 2010. We were told to evacuate to Jeddah and we were closer to the al Qaeda held cities than to Jeddah. Fun times!

[ecocks]

Thanks for the info on Jizan. I understand what's going on there.

Back to the passports, VS puts it pretty clearly. Give them up if you're that desperate for a job or don't go if you can't stand the working conditions.

It is interesting that the Canadian Embassy still states that this IS the law in SA, so does Lonely Planet and a couple of recruiter sites I researched.

[It's Scary!]

I smells me a troll!

It's quite apparent!

[ecocks]

[johnslat]

Dear ecocks,

Also, as has been mentioned before, your passport is absolutely useless to you when you are in Saudi Arabia.

You can leave the country legally ONLY when you have an valid exit visa in your passport. And ONLY your employer can get that for you.

So, you go to the embassy and tell them you lost you're passport. The embassy calls your employer to check on your story. Un-oh, your passport hasn't been lost at all. It's sitting in a desk drawer at your employer's. The embassy will do NOTHING about that - that's between you and your employer (a Saudi, by the way since EVERY company in Saudi Arabia is owned by Saudis, even if they are only "silent partners).

But the embassy WILL be rather angry at YOU for your duplicity in trying to get another passport. And your employer will ALSO be angry with you.

How not to win friends and influence people.

And for what? Your passport is completely useless to you.

Regards,
John

[ecocks]

Last reply then I'm out on this topic. Few of you seem to really have definitive answers although a couple of people have stated that simply standing up to their employers and demanding it back has worked and should be done more often.

Dear John:

Despite your incorrect assertion that it would be a false report I never said tell them a lie. Since you don't care to be accurate I said "...report that it was "lost/stolen" and being held by my employer. Let them fight the battle and sort it out."

From the beginning I was clear in stating that I was only addressing what to do about getting a passport when your employer would not give it back to you. I have no need of playing some sort of game by obtaining a second passport, only a replacement for the original.

Since you seem to have trouble visualizing this I'll be detailed:

Go to the Embassy.

Somehow get in without a passport ID. Maybe the KSA Embassy is used to admitting American citizens without this but I have never seen an Embassy that didn't expect you to have it at the gate as proof of citizenship. Unless of course, you were going in to report a lost or stolen passport and begin the process of getting a new one.

Tell them you gave your passport to your employer and they refuse to give it back to you. Yes, you need to clearly tell your employer you want it back since it's illegal for them to keep it after visa processing and would need to have them tell you they are not giving it back to you.

If, as you say, they make the call to your employer and get it released, all well and good. You just proved my point because that is flexing their wasta as the US Embassy by making an intercession on your behalf.

If they call and the employer says come get it, but he's fired, that's all well and good as far as I am concerned because it's an attempt to control you by the employer. Why work under the conditions many of you outline? They are really no different than the white slavery rings which operate in the US, Britain and other countries. While some of you want to protest the common practice of violating the acknowledged law you let yourselves be victimized.

I believe I'm correct that you wouldn't grow old and die in SA but that the Embassy would get this sorted out quickly enough. You apparently believe that the Embassy would be "rather angry" at me. Like I would care but I doubt they would regard it as more than dealing with one part of their job description in the course of their career.

Now, some will be choking and snickering that someone with this attitude will never find work in Saudi. Maybe that's true, but so far positives on working there seem far outweighed by the complaints.

Let's just agree to disagree John. You have a lot of good information on ESL and life for EFL teachers which makes you a valuable resource for the TEFL community.