|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Madame J
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 239
Location: Oxford, United Kingdom
|
 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:56 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Speaking as another Brit, I know very few people here who'd be able to support their family on a single income. Those days are far behind us now, whether this be due to rising living costs, increased need for foreign holidays/iPhones/plasma TVs, or a combination of both. Most people I know with kids either survive on an income and a half, or rely on nearby retired parents to bear the brunt of a lot of the childcare. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Madame J wrote: |
| Speaking as another Brit, I know very few people here who'd be able to support their family on a single income. Those days are far behind us now, whether this be due to rising living costs, increased need for foreign holidays/iPhones/plasma TVs, or a combination of both. Most people I know with kids either survive on an income and a half, or rely on nearby retired parents to bear the brunt of a lot of the childcare. |
The need to pay for all the technology we use on a daily basis is a big part of it. Imagine back to the 1950�s to the late 70�s & early 80�s.
A TV. Radio. Both were bought and paid for. Usually one big TV in the living room, replaced maybe every 5 years. TV/radio shops provided both sales and service. Telephones were basic and about the only major monthly bill besides the rent/mortgage, car payment and utilities.
A car was far more basic. Many were able to carry out simple and basic repairs on the weekends from the garage.
Now look at the world we live in. Cable and satelite HD TV, internet, smart phones with 2 year contracts, Blue-Ray DVD�s, NetFlix, cars are complicated you MUST take them to a fully equipped shop to even diagnose the problem.
Now we have a host of electronic gadgets, computers, cell phones etc that MUST be replaced every 2 years on average, they all carry a bill and most people think they can�t live without them.
Back in the 50�s, 60�s and 70�s the average American with a HS diploma could find good paying work in union factory jobs. Now, we sell kids on the idea that you need a college degree and we are pumping out people without any real job (or life) skills that are now in debt and still working at Starbucks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Prof., I'm in partial agreement. However, note that many consumer products are much cheaper now than they were in the 50s, 60s and 70s relative to wages. That basic Tv did not come cheap. Today, on the other hand, I can get a very nice flat-screen TV, somewhere in the 40-inch range, for under U.S. $500 if I shop around. (It might be a Haier.)
Look at the link below. In 1959, a 21-inch RCA color TV was selling for $495 -- actual dollars, not adjusted!
http://www.tvhistory.tv/tv-prices.htm
I think you'd find the same patterns for washers, dryers and many other household items and services. As for phones, think how much people had to pay to make a long-distance call back then. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
Prof., I'm in partial agreement. However, note that many consumer products are much cheaper now than they were in the 50s, 60s and 70s relative to wages. That basic Tv did not come cheap. Today, on the other hand, I can get a very nice flat-screen TV, somewhere in the 40-inch range, for under U.S. $500 if I shop around. (It might be a Haier.)
Look at the link below. In 1959, a 21-inch RCA color TV was selling for $495 -- actual dollars, not adjusted!
http://www.tvhistory.tv/tv-prices.htm
I think you'd find the same patterns for washers, dryers and many other household items and services. As for phones, think how much people had to pay to make a long-distance call back then. |
Yes, TV�s are about the only much cheaper consumer electronic product and before it was the only major one.
The modern list of consumer eletronics most people feel are must have�s is long and extensive. Not saying that is a bad thing, but many of these gadgets from smart cell phones to cable TV to internet computers all come with a nice monthly bill attached.
I doubt people in the 50�s were making anything like the number of long-distance calls we routinely make. Sending letters by mail was considered the norm and long-distance calls were reserved for important holidays and whatnot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| Now, we sell kids on the idea that you need a college degree and we are pumping out people without any real job (or life) skills that are now in debt and still working at Starbucks. |
RIGHT!!!
Degrees students get these days only teach them how evil the U.S. is  or how to be tolerant of others even when they are NOT TOLERANT of YOU or how there is no such thing as PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
I know because I have worked in universities on the admin side for almost 13 years. They graduate with a TON of student loan debt and IF THEY ARE LUCKY, they MIGHT find a job that pays 25k a year.
Off to Starsucks we go!! Would you like fries with that?
Would you like that supersized?
Thank God for EFL and trucking.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Prof. Gringo:
Not true at all. There were plenty of things to buy in decades past, and they weren't necessarily cheap. Here are some recorded prices from various years, from a site called The People History. I have also run the prices through DollarTimes.com to see how they convert to 2011 dollars.
JVC VHS Video Cassette Recorder
1979: $695
Today's dollars: $2,250.07
Atari Video Computer System
1979: $199
Today's dollars: $644.26
Bell and Howell Movie Camera
1960: $347.45
Today's dollars: $2,590.26
Clock Radio
1971: $9.94
Today's dollars: $54.74
Fisher Stereo Combination
1961: $299
Today's dollars: $2,199.14
Micro Wave Oven
1976: $169
Today's dollars: $667.41
People didn't buy as many things in the old days. They couldn't afford it! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
Prof. Gringo:
Not true at all. There were plenty of things to buy in decades past, and they weren't necessarily cheap. Here are some recorded prices from various years, from a site called The People History. I have also run the prices through DollarTimes.com to see how they convert to 2011 dollars.
JVC VHS Video Cassette Recorder
1979: $695
Today's dollars: $2,250.07
Atari Video Computer System
1979: $199
Today's dollars: $644.26
Bell and Howell Movie Camera
1960: $347.45
Today's dollars: $2,590.26
Clock Radio
1971: $9.94
Today's dollars: $54.74
Fisher Stereo Combination
1961: $299
Today's dollars: $2,199.14
Micro Wave Oven
1976: $169
Today's dollars: $667.41
People didn't buy as many things in the old days. They couldn't afford it! |
I totally disagree with your statistics. Those represent the first year(s) that those products were available and they were not widely purchased till the prices dropped.
Again, MOST people till the 80�s owned very few consumer electronics and those they did own did not need a monthly subscription fee. TV and radio were broadcast free and people were content with whatever channels and choices were available.
I am not saying life was better 40 years ago but that the expectations and monthly bills people had were much different from nowadays.
Also, products were constructed with quality materials and workmanship. Many of the items made from the 50�s to the 70�s still work just fine. Now most of the same goods are made with a product life of 3-5 years tops and they are already "obsolete" by then anyways. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| And why did they own very few electronics? (Hint: Refer to chart above.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SahanRiddhi,
Some of those present-day prices are just not realistic. Many of them can be bought for far less than what is cited. I would question the validity of those prices.
clock radio
movie camera (video camera)
microwave
Do they even still make cassette recorders??? Is Atari still in business??? Let's compare apples to apples. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think you missed the point, Glenski. Those prices are the real value today of the 1970s prices. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Phil_K wrote: |
| I think you missed the point, Glenski. Those prices are the real value today of the 1970s prices. |
I've never been comfortable with adjusted prices. I'd rather know the actual median or mean income of the years in question and today's to properly assess the affordability of the items.
But I agree that there are more items requiring monthly payments today then times past. It seems companies have become much more efficient at extracting money from consumers.
I went home a few years ago and found that $7.00 an hour jobs were not uncommon. Yet staples like bread were about 4X the cost I remember. I was quite astounded at the rise in prices compared to the regression in minimum wages across a 5 year span.
I'm reminded of a joke I heard on TV around 10 years ago. The comedian compares his life to his fathers thusly (as memory serves) - When my dad was 30 he had a house, a wife, two kids, a car and a dog. Me? I'm still trying to pay off my nintendo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Don't do it long-term unless you have another source of |
|
|
| sharter wrote: |
Any newbie getting into this game should be aware of the following facts;
the majority of overseas language outfits are unscrupulous and exploit naive foreign teachers. |
The majority or are you talking about China only? I had a friend who went to South Korea and got screwed. They promised him that he would get paid for the training but he didnt. He tried to get the other newbies to join him and try and get the money for the training period and was sent home. I believe that was in Seoul. That's not to say that all places in SK would do that. Naturgirl seems to be doing VERY WELL over there.
| sharter wrote: |
| it can be a lonely job when you're in some shythole in China for 10 months. |
My buddy was NEVER alone while he was TEFLing over there. He was in a little town called chen du or chen do. he always had a girlfriend. He was treated like a rock star in that little town.
| sharter wrote: |
| the money in 90% of jobs is barely subsistence level. |
Again, I'm assuming you're talking about China. That may be true. My buddy only made what was equal to around $500.00 dollars a month but then again he didn't have to pay rent.
| sharter wrote: |
| when you meet someone and have kids life will become really unaffordable unless you move somewhere or have a working wife....or work 40 hours a week;there is no career. |
The having kids changing everything is probably correct. My buddy's girlfriend always wanted to move back to the states with him because she worked full time in Bejing and only makes what is equal to $200.00 dollars a month. There is no career? Depends if you have four to eight "qualifications" and the money to get them. Try South Korea or Japan.
| sharter wrote: |
| you might not have proper healthcare and you certainly won't ever get a pension. |
Sounds like the United States. 
| sharter wrote: |
| Don't do this long-term or you'll be remembering this post in a decade and kicking yourself. I've had 4 teaching gigs in the Middle East and they've all been filled with penniless, older teachers, many divorced with kids in some far off land who regret they day they ever left their original careers. |
The problem is once someone is in an area too long and then they try to go home, it may be difficult to get into anything else. Some places here in the U.S. don't look too highly on EFL teaching experience abroad. That has been my experience. It may be a good idea for a person who is considering TEFLing, to think LONG TERM. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| And "the money in 90% of jobs is barely subsistence level" and "good local salary means abject poverty" are not entirely accurate. |
True, not entirely accurate but accurate in MANY of the TEFLing jobs. Most who make decent money are not really TEFLer's, they are working at a private school teaching a subject like math or some type of science. Or they are teaching "English" but teaching it to kids just as would be the case in an elementary school in the states for example. And as anyone who has ever "taught" kids knows....the "teacher" is more like a babysitter when it comes to the young kids.
| Glenski wrote: |
| It's dependent on country, and maybe for entry level jobs, but take into account that many/most places don't even ask for more than a generic BA degree and no teaching qualifications, so should someone with only that expect more? |
Excellent point, Glenski. My friend who taught in China had a bachelor degree in humanities and no type of TEFLing certificate nor any other type of training. That's why he was only making $500 bucks a month and is now back in the states working at Target. Would you like cheese with that pretzel? 
Just kidding Jimmy...I'm sure you're a regional manager by now.
| Glenski wrote: |
| "it's a really hard industry to get out of" deserves some explanation, I feel. |
I agree. I'm guessing that he means that it could be hard to get a job back home if one has spent too much time TEFLing abroad. But then again that could be said for any career.
| Glenski wrote: |
| Do many/most newbies really know what they are getting into? I would hazard a guess to say no |
Most newbies in ANY area don't know what they are really getting into until they actually start doing it. Forums are great but eventually the person needs to jump in and see if it is for them or not. Just have some money so you can leave if you need to and have a plan B.
| Glenski wrote: |
| If the TEFL biz was more tightly regulated, things might be different |
Agree 100%!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| contented wrote: |
| If you are not happy with your position you can always change at the end of your contract. |
True. And then start working on getting those "upgrades" or "qualifications" so you can do better and make more. Nothing is free in life and that includes those powerful qualifications that can open doors everywhere. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
|
|
| sharter wrote: |
| Regarding the abject poverty? well, that certainly covers Europe and North America and since most of my current colleagues have come from Thailand broke I'd say it covers there too. |
North America I'd say yes for the most part. I worked part-time at a community college teaching ESL. It wa a great par-time gig but that was about it. No bennies and one never knew how many classes they would have from one semester to the next.
Since "qualifications" is praised a lot as being one of the main ingredients to doing well TEFLing, I wonder if you would share with us what qualifications your "broke colleagues" have. Perhaps they need to get the TKT, CELTA, DELTA, an MA in TESOL, and become a member of a professional organization like TESOL, have some things published, and THEN they may do better in TEFLing.
| sharter wrote: |
| Regarding career? I don't think I'm off the mark. A job is something you do whereas a career has a structure and usually some sort of upward mobility and pay spine, which is all extremely rare in EFL. |
Is it rare in EFL or is it rare in those who have very little to no qualifications? I'm just curious.
| sharter wrote: |
| At the uni level you'll get a local pension and medicare but most of the top jobs are for the locals. |
Agreed. There are a FEW who have good positions in a university and think others can have that too, but there just aren't enough positions at those universities to go around for everyone, regardless of the qualifications they may have. A person could have experience and every qualification under the sun but if the university doesn't have a position then you get no position. And yes, nepotism is alive and well in many countries and this also could hurt the chances of one getting into a good position at a university.
| sharter wrote: |
| Nope...I stick to my OP based on the evidence all around me of older teachers trying desperately to get out or counting their pennies in a way that borders on the obsessive. |
Again, I am curious as to the qualifications and/or education people have who make very little money TEFLing. You mentioned "older teachers". Could that be part of the problem? Age discrimination exists everywhere and it is hard for older people to get a career going in ANY field, not just EFL. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
