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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Sewer skewer? Not familiar with this testing technical term... |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep in mind that the majority of us (?) teach children and teens but none of us spend more than an hour or 2 of our cert training on how to teach them. |
I'm not sure what 'us' you are referring to but teaching children is by no means the bulk of the EFL/ESL job market in either Europe or North America, among other regions. I assume you're referring to Asia, specifically - which, as we've established, is a rather different animal to most of the rest of the world, and rightfully so.
If you aim specifically to discuss writing better tests for young Asian learners, you might have more success on the General Asia forum. I know something about testing and creating tests, as do others of us here, but I don't think that many of us in fact work extensively (or even at all, in many cases) with kids.
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| How do others feel about this? Are well-written tests the exception or the norm? |
I've rarely used on that was poorly written in my 14 years. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| ...teaching children is by no means the bulk of the EFL/ESL job market in either Europe or North America... |
You're right--I taught many adult but only two teens' classes in Canada. However, a search of the int'l job board yielded more than twice as many hits for the term 'children' than for 'adults' and TEFL.com had a 1/3 more.
Thanks for pointing out the General Asia forum. I'd never scrolled that far south before.
| spiral78 wrote: |
| I've rarely used one that was poorly written in my 14 years. |
Surprising given what Hughes, I and those on the Assessment forum are saying. Would you attribute that to where you are (in Europe), what you're teaching from, or who wrote your tests? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| However, a search of the int'l job board yielded more than twice as many hits for the term 'children' than for 'adults' and TEFL.com had a 1/3 more. |
I'm going to hazard a guess that this is because the majority of adverts on at the moment are for jobs in China and other parts of Asia.
This is not the hiring season in many parts of the world and
China/Asia probably has more jobs on offer than many other countries. However, I don't think it equates to 'most of us teach kids,' by any means.
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| Would you attribute that to where you are (in Europe), what you're teaching from, or who wrote your tests? |
All of the above, though we had pretty decent tests across the board in Canada as well.
My point was that what's true in one type of EFL context (eg. private language school/Asia/CELTA level - or lower - teacher qualifications predominant) is not necessarily true in other contexts (eg. western university/professional business teaching, teachers with more experience and qualifications predominate).
I've become quite allergic to sweeping generalisations about any aspect of EFL teaching. It's very apparent that the experience of one teacher, or a group of teachers - or what is generally true in one region - is by no means representative of EFL as a whole. That's what I find valuable about Dave's - we are rich in different experiences and perspectives here. There really is no one-size-fits-all in the field.
That diversity doesn't necessarily make for neat black-and-white discussion, but when people are capable of expressing and comprehending more nuanced ideas, it's potentially highly valuable.
I would personally have preferred an OP on this topic along the lines of:
What elements are needed to make good teacher-generated tests?
...broken down by test purpose and student type/level/goals, etc.
That would lead somewhere other than to a dead end, with the experience and ideas of some running counter to those of others on the general question of 'are there any good tests in the world of EFL.' |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Was that another sewer skewer? I'm interested in finding out more about this testing term. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Did I skewer a sewer??!!  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Couldn't tell you. My teacher-training didn't adequately cover that. But I was hoping for more on the idea that if young kids can speak their own language, they should be expected to speak English. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Did some research:
http://soundcloud.com/moefly/sewer-skewers-instrumental
Or maybe we mean this:
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The Sewer Skewer: Man Cooks Kebab By Dead Body
�CARRY on cooking: Chef made kebabs as body of dead colleague lay on sofa.� So says the Mail. It is the Sun�s �Goner Kebab�.
And what of Jaswinder Singh? Is he billed in the tabloids as a consciencious worker, one in the eye for workshy shirkers? Is he a man planning ahead, going long on meat?
Is he ready to brandish a man-sized skewer and turn whistleblower on the kebab industry?
Is this a satire on kebab shop knifings?
No, he is the source of cheap puns and accusations.
The Mail says how a police officer investigating the employee�s demise �found Singh working near the body in the fly-infested food preparation room. The officer was so disgusted he immediately closed the premises.
Reports are filed. Pens are pushed. Wheels turn. And:
Wolverhampton Magistrates� Court, banned 45-year-old Singh from managing any food business in the future. District Judge Martin Brown said: �The facts in this case are extraordinarily serious.�
So no awards for diligence and best practice at the Pappu Sweet Centre & Catering, Wolverhampton. Nbo prizes for busting the credit cruchn and sourcing nes sources of protein.
No prise form globam warmists for the pourge on humanity.
Just cheap jokes and officaldom. For shame�
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http://www.anorak.co.uk/192495/tabloids/the-sewer-skewer-man-cooks-kebab-by-dead-body.html/
Or this one??
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19560823&id=BXdWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9-QDAAAAIBAJ&pg=908,1686961
I admit that none seem to be related to testing in ELT, though. Clearly my own training has been lacking in this respect  |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Sewer skewer? Not familiar with this testing technical term... |
Thought you'd like that one, given your interest in language, poetry and obscure vocab, Sasha. I'm not illiterate, just alliterate (pun intended  ). But I guess I won't get kudos for coining it. By the way, I had to check my hunch (probably emanating from my Dutch ancestry) that 'droogie' was a term of endearment.
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| ...teaching children is by no means the bulk of the EFL/ESL job market in either Europe or North America, among other regions. |
I believe that for N.A. and I'm inclined to take your word for the ratio in Europe despite the fact TEFL.com still reveals more hits for children than adults in Europe.
You're right about diversity but for those of us like myself who currently teach pre-primary to adult oral English, there are (teacher) learning points in one context we apply to the other. I got an email just yesterday by a poster who unexpectedly shared one regarding pronunciation.
| spiral78 wrote: |
I would personally have preferred an OP on this topic along the lines of:
What elements are needed to make good teacher-generated tests?
...broken down by test purpose and student type/level/goals, etc.
That would lead somewhere other than to a dead end, with the experience and ideas of some running counter to those of others on the general question of 'are there any good tests in the world of EFL.' |
The reason I posted this thread here is that I wanted to engage in a general discussion about about the role and importance of assessment --not specific methods. Obviously, had I found such threads as you suggest on the Assessment forum, I wouldn't have seen the need for this thread. I somewhat wonder whether it's because many still conceive of assessment as being synonymous with final testing.
I found another book on the subject. Although this could apply to any area of study, here's what it says:
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What is assessment?
This handbook deals with assessment. It is very important to make a clear distinction between assessment and evaluation. As teachers, when we carry out assessment, we have to measure the performance of our students and the progress they make. We also need to diagnose the problems they have and provide our learners with useful feedback. Evaluation on the other hand involves looking at all the factors that influence the learning process, such as syllabus objectives, course design, materials, methodology, teacher performance and assessment. Assessment and evaluation are often linked, because assessment is one of the most valuable sources of information about what is happening in a learning environment.
Prejudices and problems
Assessment is generally seen as something done to students by teachers. Many students may feel panic and confusion. Tests descend upon them from time to time and have to be �got through�. The more able ones may even enjoy these experiences, as they can assert their superiority over the rest of the class. However, many students feel anxious, worried and inadequate. There is often great pressure on them to succeed and if they do not, they become branded as failures.
Unfortunately this competition creates more losers than winners. Many teachers feel little better. Some feel that tests are only useful as a way of motivating students to work harder and virtually all of us feel insecure and uncomfortable when we have to pass or fail students.
Many of these negative attitudes towards assessment come from the generalised feeling of a divorce between learning and teaching on the one hand, and assessment on the other. The fundamental reason for this is that assessment often does not feed back into the learning and teaching process.
* Firstly, assessment is often seen as synonymous with testing. Testing or formal assessment, where test or exam conditions are established, is certainly an important way of assessing learners. However, it is not the only one and both informal assessment and self-assessment are vital. Informal assessment is assessment carried out by the teacher not under special test conditions, but in the normal classroom environment (for example with students helping each other when necessary). Self assessment is that carried out by students themselves of their own progress and problems.
* Secondly, assessment is seen as something that happens after learning has finished, rather than during the learning process. Tests or exams are often given at the end of term or of a course and they are often regarded as a rather painful but necessary prelude to the holidays. For many learners the information that this assessment gives them about their performance and progress comes much too late to be formative, to feed into their own learning.
* Another problem is the kind of feedback that learners are given. Often information about how well learners are doing is expressed only by a grade or mark. The grade classifies students, but does not give any real help by telling students what their specific problems are and by making suggestions to overcome them.
* An additional drawback of the way assessment is carried out in many classrooms is that it often concentrates on only one part of what has gone on in the classroom. It is easier to test tangible knowledge of grammar for example, than to assess performance at say speaking. An over-reliance on grammar tests gives students the clear message that they have been wasting their time trying to communicate in class. What matters is grammar.
from Assessment (Handbooks for the English Classroom) Published by Macmillan |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Sewer skewer? Not familiar with this testing technical term... |
Thought you'd like that one, given your interest in language, poetry and obscure vocab, Sasha. |
Liked it? Loved it! But doesn't change the ground we are on regarding the testing of young learners. Very dodgy ground, I have to say... |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Prejudices and Problems cont'd.
* Yet another reason for negative attitudes to assessment among students is that, rather than give them the opportunity to show what they have learnt, it tries to catch students out, to reveal what they have not learnt. Learners also feel alienated by assessment because they have no role in it, apart from as passive participants. For many learners in this situation, assessment must seem arbitrary and at times even unfair. Sometimes they get on with their teacher, sometimes they do not. Sometimes they are lucky and revise the right material for a test, sometimes they are unlucky.
On the other hand, surprisingly little help is given to teachers to assess effectively and fairly, to carry out assessment that reflects what has gone on in the classroom. The result is that as teachers we are often on the defensive when dealing with learners, parents and school administrators.
An added problem is often that of the effect of public examinations, both national and international. Not only is the stress factor for learners greatly increased, but the examinations can have a profound washback effect (the influence of assessment on both teaching and learning). In some cases examinations can dominate what goes on in language classrooms for the months and even years leading up to them. If all these exams were forward-thinking and communicative this would be positive. Unfortunately this is not always the case.
from Assessment (Handbooks for the English Classroom) Published by Macmillan |
My argument is that in public school teaching, assessment has played an increasingly important role in informing instruction. I just agree with the authors of both books I've now quoted that its time TEFL training programs address this need. An Amazon search for 'classroom assessment' for example, yielded more hits (7,690) than for 'classroom discipline' (6,513) if that's anything to go on. ESL Assessment yielded only 430 hits and of the '9' for 'TEFL assessment', none had both terms in the book title.
Re: Sasha's 'testing of young learners--very dodgy ground In the above Prejudices and Problems, the authors fail to mention the point I raised about how unsuccessful test scores would jeopardize the bottom line in private schools. That being said, one test at the school I'm currently with (well over 100 franchises mostly in Asia but some in Europe) was actually too hard for the 7 yr olds I teach--this appears to be a test that's been around for years. Along with answering questions orally, they were expected to write responses (not just copy) to such questions, as in the previous few weeks in their homework books (which they couldn't do without parental assistance and therefore, didn't). Yet teachers' notes for in class instruction focus specifically on oral instruction. Prescribed in-class written work beyond copying the 2 letters of the alphabet introduced each week, is copying their own name on the board and copying the basic prep's.
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Sasha & Spiral78 might be right. You can't expect much from a franchise school, particularly in Asia and for kids, no matter how big or int'l it is.
But I also have problems with a test from Cambridge. Yes, it's an off-the-shelf placement test not designed for any specific country (intercultural awareness) or educational establishment but I still find it wanting. Designed to last over an hour with a writing, listening, grammar and oral interview component, no one can deny it ensures appropriate placement but can we not expect more useful data from such tests in less time?
The test's standard oral interview questions (What's your name? What sports do you like? etc), require complete comprehension for a response but as with small children, the face-to-face encounter with a foreign interviewer for the first time can be a daunting one, particularly if one hasn't spoken English in quite some time. What's needed is a placement test that takes this into consideration when placing false beginners.
So, as with children, simple pictures, numbers and colors help draw attention away from the encounter and bring to mind (mouth) prior/dormant learned vocab and expressions. A month ago during such a placement interview with a low-level adult, I took a stack of about 30 animal flashcards I use with kids and asked her to flip through them naming those she could. What intrigued both of us was that naming those she could was enough to help her remember half of those she thought she'd forgotten or never learned--she kept on going back and naming the ones she skipped--no doubt those nearby neural networks were reawakened by adjacent activity. (pardon the alliteration) |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Sasha & Spiral78 might be right. You can't expect much from a franchise school, particularly in Asia and for kids, no matter how big or int'l it is. |
The few times I've worked with really poor tests were at franchise schools, where I've spent a sum total of 18 months in my 14-year career. Utterly awful tests.
One I was required by circumstance to administer last year (I was doing a project in curriculum design for a franchise school and they needed a teacher to fill in at the last minute) overtly tested grammar points that had not been taught: this test was the measure if the students could 'move up' a class or not and was therefore extremely demotivating. I was embarassed to be involved, however peripherally. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Dear LongShiKong
There are so many issues in your last post, it is hard to tease them out. But here goes:
1. Placement tests. They do only what they say on the tin. They help a busy DoS office decide which class large numbers of new intake should be placed in. And they do it relatively quickly. However, as it usually says on such testing material, tests are good servants but poor masters. They are not infallible, nor is it claimed that they are. Should a student go into Pre-Int or Up-Int? Pretty rough, but that's all that is needed.
2. Spoken interviews require basic listening comprehension. Nothing strange there. It is not just one skill that is being tested. Most tests assess a mix of skills. E.g. all those finicky spelling points deducted in an average FCE Listening exam - they test for writing too, even in an aural test!
3. Children need to be placed according to age as well as English ability. Most oral interviews with kids are quick and do not require much output from the kids. It is a major mistake to expect anything beyond basic words, never mind fully formed sentences from a seven-year-old who may have even a couple of years of English under his belt. It is not hard to place kids, even with a homemade test. Really.
4. False beginners are really easy to place - in a beginners group. No need for sophisticated testing instruments there.
5. Using material which was designed for kids when dealing with adults is a big no-no. Perhaps this was indeed intriguing, for you at least, but it runs the risk of being demeaning also. Not sure how many animals one needs to identify in order to be placed up a level either...
It seems to me that your views on EFL language assessment are being skewed by your experience in dealing with institutions that do not really know what they are doing. Understandable. But that does not mean that EFL training courses are lacking, or that there is some sort of 'disconnect' between academia and the teaching world.
It is really not as bad as you have described for many, many others in the field. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| It seems to me that your views on EFL language assessment are being skewed ... |
No, skewered, Sasha--mine along with the views of those authors.  |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha, in all seriousness I agree for the most part and appreciate your comments.
You're right, a 10-min oral interview should be enough to simply place a student. But is that all we should be doing, especially with adults?
The first time I taught an upper-int adult oral English class, I felt intimidated despite having a coursebook to follow. I knew they wanted plenty of speaking practice but without knowledge of their active, passive, and un-studied language, how could I ensure the majority would leave each lesson feeling they'd acquired something new? Our school already hosted a free (for anyone) English corner wkly that many at their level attended.
It's no surprise that this and another major franchise school I worked for have all but abandoned their adult programs. Only the illusion of learning is required for a children's program to succeed. I'm not sure who you're working for but in the private sector, if adults or whoever's paying for their instruction feel they're not learning, you don't just risk losing them but your reputation.
If I were to sign up for a Chinese class at the intermediate level, I'd really appreciate someone taking more than 10 minutes to place me and using that data (along with data from classmates) to inform the instruction of whoever'd teach us.
In the presentation stage of the lesson, teacher's generally elicit the grammar point/vocab as a means of testing familiarity. But to wait until the start of each lesson to do so isn't practical---what if the language you planned to practice that day is too easy for them? I'm used to teaching children but with adults, I feel I waste a lot of time finding out what language they know and don't and I can't keep that all in my head for every class.
The interesting thing about the hr-long Cambridge placement test is that other than to recommend a level, there's no suggestion whatsoever as to how to use such results to inform teaching. Obviously, if someone's reading/writing comp is much better than their speaking/listening, it's going to dramatically affect the way you teach them.
By the way, I used those animal cards for only one longer-than-10-min interview. That woman, a false beginner, is progressing at several times the recommended pace. Given the success of this technique, I plan to use it for the first minute or so in all my (false) beginner interviews prior to the "What's your name?" "What sports do you like?" type questions. |
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