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Language death! How much guilt do you feel?
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
Look also at the Netherlands, which considered making English the language of instruction for all its universities..

This example demonstrates the fact that linguistic evolution is not always dictated by the decisions of an oppressor nation. Here, any decision would be based on purely economic grounds: lessons conducted in Dutch would have little attraction for much of the world, while English will lead to an advantage for the Netherlands, as they attract students who are increasingly deterred by the expense of British universities.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LongShiKong wrote:


Point is, languages don't die unless the cultures that create them do.


Ireland. Language almost fully dead, though making a small comeback. However, culture never died.

Israel. Hebrew almost relegated to the same 'dead language' status as ancient Greek and Latin, but Jewish culture never died. Hebrew now returned to the land of the living. Possibly the only example of this in world history.

I do not really see how language and culture can be consider mutually dependent when there are examples, striking ones, which show this is not true.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

I'd say the same could be claimed for many Native American languages. But of course, although the "culture" has "survived," it's altered and been affected in so many ways.

Regards,
John
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Johnslat

That is possibly the case. I do not really know enough about native Americans. How much guilt is felt over there about their decimation, though?


Best regards

Sasha
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking of native Americans, have you ever come across Debora Lyall, the lead singer of Romeo Void? This is her in Never Say Never:
http://www.howtomakeonline.org/8_njMMoneyGmIIPe/Romeo-Void-Never-Say-Never.html
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sasha,

Hard to say, but my impression is that only we "bleeding-heart" libs may feel guilt. I taught on the Navajo rez for a year (Shiprock, NM) and the poverty, hopelessness, alcoholism, and terrible waste of potential are heartbreaking.

Regards,
John
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coledavis



Joined: 21 Jun 2003
Posts: 1838

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was Debora there?
http://www.howtomakeonline.org/8_njMMoneyGmIIPe/Romeo-Void-Never-Say-Never.html
I've been indexing a book today and this song I found on Minnesota Public Radio has been keeping me sane (I think).
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear coledavis,

Nope - she's Cowlitz, not Navajo. Great song, though Here's her latest

http://www.deboraiyall.com/home.html

Regards,
John
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
LongShiKong wrote:


Point is, languages don't die unless the cultures that create them do.


Ireland. Language almost fully dead, though making a small comeback. However, culture never died.
.

Depends on what we consider culture. You're right, Gaelic and other near dead languages are making a small comeback, but Sasha, with all due respect, wouldn't you agree that the precipitating factor is not a linguistic but a cultural one--the search for identity, exploring one's cultural heritage... beyond green beer, shamrocks and leprechauns? In fact, hasn't Gaelic been on the decline since communal life in Ireland was threatened during the 19th century potato famine? I don't know much about this historical period-- but my guess is that economic and linguistic (forced) dependency on England at the time took their toll on both the culture and the language, considered by many even today as a 'peasants language'. Were England as vulnerable following the Norman invasion, wouldn't we all parlais francais?

Anyone else care to comment?


Last edited by LongShiKong on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irish writers who wrote in Irish? Sure. Myles na Gopaleen, aka Brian Nolan. Even Yeats used to dabble in Irish, though not to the same effect as in English. P�draic � Conaire remains as popular as ever, though not a global name. Patrick Pearse, is probably more famous for his politics, but was also an accomplished Irish language poet. On a tangent, Beckett wrote in French - does he not count as an Irish writer?

However, I am still unsure of what connection you see between language and culture here. Are you suggesting that Irish and, say, Welsh culture is identical to the culture of England because of the now shared language of English? I think you'll find plenty of disagreement there. For the same reasons that North Americans or Australians probably wouldn't see themselves as English either...
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hee hee! Edited your question out? Very Happy
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LongShiKong



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sashadroogie wrote:
I am still unsure of what connection you see between language and culture here. Are you suggesting that Irish and, say, Welsh culture is identical to the culture of England because of the now shared language of English? I think you'll find plenty of disagreement there. For the same reasons that North Americans or Australians probably wouldn't see themselves as English either...


Yes, that was my point, but yes, you do have an argument there.

EDIT: Yes, I started realizing the validity of your point.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Let's hear the argument for the essential identity of culture in Scotland, Ireland, England, Wales, and also of other English-speaking countries.
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Sashadroogie



Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LongShiKong wrote:


EDIT: Yes, I started realizing the validity of your point.


That brave honesty elevates you in the eyes of myself and all others, hic!

Very Happy
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teacheratlarge



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 192
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In fact, hasn't Gaelic been on the decline since communal life in Ireland was threatened during the 19th century potato famine? I don't know much about this historical period-- but my guess is that economic and linguistic (forced) dependency on England at the time took their toll on both the culture and the language, considered by many even today as a 'peasants language'. Were England as vulnerable following the Norman invasion, wouldn't we all parlais francais?

Anyone else care to comment?


Yes, history records show some languages becoming dominant and some being pushed into decline. Economics and social trends have a lot to do with it. French is declining, though on a slower curve because of some African nations with higher birth rates (but unfortunately shorter life expectancies) using it.

I think it's part of linguistic evolution. I think it's similar as to why Esperanto and Globish are not taking off rapidly for that matter.
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