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mk87
Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 61
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 Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Johnslat you have hit the nail on the head. The point I was making in the critical thinking thread. Critical thinking isnt a subject (depite some misguided attempts), thats the point of it. Its something that we do with everything. If you arent using critical thinking skills when you are studying a new language then you're not going to get very far.
A good example is this learning styles, I have used this in class before to have my students self analyse themselves - its lots of interesting language etc... but like any good task it has to have a purpose to it and a discussion on if they agree with the idea/ thier own styles is the logical conclusion. That in itself is an exercise in critical thinking. In my mind its almost impossible to divide language and those skills. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Shsha,
It all goes together, doesn't it? You claim that it's NOT an EFL/ESL teacher's job to teach critical thinking (a faulty generalization, I might add), and so I, who DO teach critical thinking skills and am an ESL teacher can't let you get away with such uncritical thinking  .
Regards,
John |
Dear Johnslat
Woo hoo! And we're off : )
Nice avoidance of 'who brought up what'. Probably best ignored. Gets boring easily.
However, I would disagree with your description of my generalisation as 'faulty'. I'd wonder on what basis you would support that claim...
You may teach critical thinking skills to learners who need academic support in their reading and writing - and this is what you mean by 'critical thinking'. But I fear you are judging others by your own rarified status, and are overrating their understanding of this area. Tsk tsk. Such over-generalisation...
Look at the comments posted on this forum and analyse what the majority of posters means when they say 'critical thinking skills'. I think you'll find that they are referring to helping students acquire basic logic to use in their non-English learning lives, which are lacking in this crucial aspect of mental development on account of their backward culture. This is what I say is in fundamental error. Surely you'd agree with that?
If not, imagine a teacher who says his religion compels him to 'enlighten' his learners. There are plenty of such types floating about, as I'm sure you know. But I'd be surprised, and dismayed, if you said proselytism was a valid EFL exercise. The Devil may care that there are TEFL text books that cater to some religious needs, e.g. just seen a book titled "English for Islamic Studies" - it is far from a typical requirement of language teachers, even if it is about The Word.
The same goes for helping learners not to be so 'uncritical'...
http://www.garneteducation.com/Book/396/English_for_Islamic_Studies.html |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sahsa,
Tsk, tsk, there you go, projecting your paranoia of imperialistic, capitalist patronization upon us poor, downtrodden ESL/EFLers.
I very much doubt too many of us are "carrying the white man's burden" of bringing critical thinking enlightenment to the mentally-challenged colonials.
Regards,
John |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I very much doubt too many of us are "carrying the white man's burden" of bringing critical thinking enlightenment to the mentally-challenged colonials. |
Dear John:
Sadly, I have met a fair number of would-be and newbie teachers over the years who do in fact take such an approach to their students. This seems to usually be rather an unconscious choice, perhaps a response to less-than-perfect English language skills leading the teacher to mistake a language learner for someone whose thinking skills are in need of development (childlike).
Perhaps I have been exposed to a few rare freaks:-)
Best,
spiral |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Dear spiral78,
"Perhaps I have been exposed to a few rare freaks:-)"
Hope so - and, of course, there is the irony of such people who clearly lack (at the very least some) critical thinking skills believing that they are qualified to teach such skills.
Regards,
John |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Pah! Just described the bog-standard.
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Sasha,
I'm afraid I'm daft and confuddled. What does "bog standard" mean? I know "bog" can be a synonym for "loo," but I'm still at a loss.
Ah, googled it: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bog-standard.html
So, it means "basic/ordinary/unrefined" - but does it also have a connotation of "widespread" or "the majority?"
Regards,
John
Last edited by johnslat on Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Hope so - and, of course, there is the irony of such people who clearly lack (at the very least some) critical thinking skills believing that they are qualified to teach such skills. |
Dear John:
Exactly. Entirely Correct.
Now, perhaps you understand a bit the origins of the scorn some of us heap on the notion that language learners need to be taught how to think:-)
Best,
spiral |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Hope so - and, of course, there is the irony of such people who clearly lack (at the very least some) critical thinking skills believing that they are qualified to teach such skills. |
Dear John:
Exactly. Entirely Correct.
Now, perhaps you understand a bit the origins of the scorn some of us heap on the notion that language learners need to be taught how to think:-)
Best,
spiral |
I almost had to teach a Critical Thinking course in my 2nd semester at a university in China 10 yrs ago. Sure glad the dean wizened up. Instead of the oral English course I was initially told I'd be teaching, he had me teach reading comprehension of articles from Forbes, Harvard Business Review, the Economist etc. Why me rather than Chinese teaching staff left my freshmen students and I wondering. Obviously, the dean needed the Critical Thinking course more than anyone. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Sasha,
I'm afraid I'm daft and confuddled. What does "bog standard" mean? I know "bog" can be a synonym for "loo," but I'm still at a loss.
Ah, googled it: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/bog-standard.html
So, it means "basic/ordinary/unrefined" - but does it also have a connotation of "widespread" or "the majority?"
Regards,
John |
Dear Johnslat
Yes, it does. In the same way that 'typical' or 'usual' can connote a majority. However the colorful phrase in question is nearly alway used disparagingly to describe this typical something. Apologies to all those who feel they may match such a tag. : )
Best wishes
(Not a Shah) Sasha |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear Sahsa,
Tsk, tsk, there you go, projecting your paranoia of imperialistic, capitalist patronization upon us poor, downtrodden ESL/EFLers.
I very much doubt too many of us are "carrying the white man's burden" of bringing critical thinking enlightenment to the mentally-challenged colonials.
Regards,
John |
Dear Johnslat
It isn't paranoiac projection. I have extensive files on many, many cultural imperialist teachers, patronizingly engaged in neo-white man's burden. I am impressed that you have at least identified the strong association between 'critical thinking skills' nonsense and this vile capitalist attempt to remould the world in the piggies' image. But I must express wonder that you have doubts about the number of us who are running dogs for the Piggie masters. I mean do a search on just the China boards to see the weight of numbers come down heavily on my side of the argument. Even Spiral has witnessed this. I have to ask, why haven't you?
Johnslat - the comrades and I can help you. You are blind now, but you can still hope to see. With a little more dialectical materialism, you can cast off the Piggie blinkers and shackles. You can see the world not only as it truly is, but also how it CAN be, how it SHOULD be, and how it WILL be under the loving and all-knowing guidance of Marxist-Leninist leadership. Learn to see the essentials. Come and join us, Johnslat. Learn to think ideologically and in accrodance with Communist orthodoxy! Do it now, while there is still hope!!!
Best wishes
Sasha |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Dear Sasah,
Alas - it is too late. I have succumbed to the capitalist lure of pelf and wealth, which is, of course, why I entered the ESL/EFL field in the first place.
Regards,
Piggie John |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:36 am Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat
Pelf! What an excellent word! My new favourite! Would you care to do the honours on the 'Favourites' thread?
As regards your piggiement, we the Comrades can only weep. But your Masters' system has had its day, and we will graciously officiate at the graveside, before marching into the glorious Future.
While it is too late to assist some TEFLers to learn to think Communistically, we can only hope that some of the other teachers from less progressive nations will be able to pull themselves out of their bourgeois mire. We are ready to help them, just waiting in the (left) wings, and they too can learn to think as properly as we do.
Best wishes
Sasha |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'll make the popcoen!  
Err...you are just having fun you guys, right? 
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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