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Sweetsee
Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Well, I don't know that I can add anything to that or what exactly the question was but...oh, yes it was I that had a question:
1) what type of investment are you going to make?
2) what amount of capital is needed?
3) how did you decide on Japan? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I want to buy real estate and I would like to have $25,000 saved as soon as possible but this will probably lead to me not learn any Japanese. Secondly I am not totally sold on Japan. I am trying to decide between Japan and Taiwan!!! I am trying to hash out a plan out. I know that things can change (nothing is set in stone), I still have 11 months until I can begin working but I think I will start looking for a job in September.
The reason I am trying to make a decision now is so that when the spring semester begins I can choose to study Mandarin or Japanese.
As for choosing Japan, well I think there are only about three choices if one wants to save money (Japan, Korea, and Taiwan). You could probably also save money if you got a job at an international school somewhere else but I have no teaching qualifications, so that is not a possibility. I like Japan because it seems interesting and I would like to experience living there. Also I think that it might be a little more liberal than Korea or Taiwan, but I could be wrong.
Furthermore I am heading to China this summer for a two month teaching gig, so I should probably just starting learning Mandarin and take it from there. I can also take Mandarin classes this summer, one hour a day. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
As for choosing Japan, well I think there are only about three choices if one wants to save money (Japan, Korea, and Taiwan). You could probably also save money if you got a job at an international school somewhere else but I have no teaching qualifications, so that is not a possibility. I like Japan because it seems interesting and I would like to experience living there. Also I think that it might be a little more liberal than Korea or Taiwan, but I could be wrong.
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JZer
not sure if you know but the sponsorship rules in Taiwan are much stricter than Japan's. In Taiwan the employer owns the visa and its not as easy to move from one employer to the other. Quit your job and the employer can start deportation proceedings against you. Not as relaxed as Japan about job-switching and quality of schools vary. I dont know much about teaching in Taiwan but i have a good link to a Taiwan blog I can show you.
http://scottsommers.blogs.com/taiwanweblog/getting_a_job_in_taiwan/index.html
China they seem to take anyone with an American accent and can fog a mirror. Vanilla flavor folks are most sought after but pay is not as good as in Japan (about a third living in Shanghai), though cost of living in cheaper. Those who live there seem to thrive on it despite some of the hardships and backwardness of some areas.
I can put you in touch with someone there- one of the Moderators on Dave's, Writerman is living in Shanghai teaching at an international school. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Paul,
Thanks!! How does the international school pay? China is not really an option unless I could work at an international school with higher pay. The only thing I said about China is that I found myself a two-month job for the summer to get some experience to put on the resume. I would try Japan out but I do not know where I could get hired to work for 2 or 3 months in the summer. Also I wanted to see China. I have to return to school September-December, so I cannot search for a 12-month contract yet.
| Quote: |
| In Taiwan the employer owns the visa and it�s not as easy to move from one employer to the other. |
As for Taiwan, everything is backwater. (What I really mean is illegally done.) I have a Taiwanese friend and he once told me the difference between making money in Taiwan and America is that in Taiwan people bribe and in America they cheat. There is a lot of bribing going on in the ESL business. There are kindergartens for kids in Taiwan, which cannot legally employ foreigners, but everyone has foreigners. As for the restrictions between employers I know but many people work a second job besides the one they are legally employed to do.
I was in Taiwan last summer and talked to some ESL teachers. I was working at an illegal summer camp. By this I mean every foreign worker was working illegal!!! This summer camps were in some of the most prestigious Taiwanese high schools. One was in the Taiwanese military high school. So a little illegal work in Taiwan does not bother me but I will admit that Japan could be safer. |
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Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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It appears this thread has been hijacked, which I think is unfortunate, even if it was not intended. I am quite interested in reading about how other people save money here, as opposed to another one of those "here are my qualifications; can I find a job in Japan?" types of threads.
Anyway, I wrote the post that Glenski copied earlier in this thread about learning Japanese. Simply put, Japanese is hard. Kanji is hard. So much can be omitted from both spoken and written communication. It's not like an Indo-European language where you get "free" words, such as "gasolina" and "secreto" and "Vater und Mutter." You really have to immerse yourself in this language if you want to break out of the robotic "genki desu ka? watashi ha Tomu desu" stage. And this immersion takes time. It has taken me almost two years of fairly serious study to get to the point where I can be reasonably self-sufficient. One year of college study is not going to prepare you for life here. Obviously it'll help. But there's a big difference between studying Japanese for 50 minutes three times a week at your university and actually LIVING in Japan, where "class" is always in session.
Japanese is EVERYWHERE, and it can take a toll on you if you're not disciplined.
1. Imagine buying a new electronic gadget and not knowing how to read the remote control, let alone the instruction manual.
2. Imagine wanting to use a copy machine to copy your passport but not knowing which button to push to start the machine or operate the machine in general.
3. Imagine going to a restaurant and the menu is written entirely in cursive kanji. So not only can you not read the menu, but even if you could, you still probably wouldn't know what you were ordering.
4. Imagine wanting to catch a city bus or a local train and the entire schedule and timetable is written in Japanese. Good luck getting where you want to go!
5. Imagine receiving a strange bill in the mail and not knowing what the bill is for or what you're supposed to do with it.
6. Imagine getting sick and having to call the operator so you can find an English-speaking doctor. What if the operator doesn't understand you? And vice versa?
7. Imagine going into a supermarket and not knowing how to cook any of the food there because you can't read the cooking instructions.
8. Imagine getting lost and having to ask for directions in a foreign language. Hope this doesn't happen to you after the last train!
9. Imagine trying to take care of official or serious business at a hospital, a bank, or the local ward office and you can't understand what the office worker is saying.
10. Imagine watching TV and not understanding the overwhelming majority of what you're watching.
For beginners and the undisciplined, Japan and the Japanese language are TOUGH. It appears that JZer is talking about both learning Japanese and saving gobs of money. He sounds quite ambitious, but I question the feasibility of this plan. In addition to taking those 10 points I just listed into consideration, I recommend that he and everyone else ignore whoever was talking about making 700,000 yen/month. That's just not going to happen. Obviously, there will always be exceptions, but the average English teacher here is likely making between 230-350,000 yen a month. Making much more than that will require a combination of landing some really sweet gigs (good luck beating the competition, especially if you have no connections and no Japanese ability) and likely working lots of hours. When will you have the time to study Japanese if you're working 11 hours a day, 6 days a week? The answer is simple: you won't. And you'll burn yourself out shortly after you get started.
Korea might be the better place to save money. More jobs are there, there are more benefits, and the cost of living is much cheaper. |
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nicyvesweet
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
| 7. Imagine going into a supermarket and not knowing how to cook any of the food there because you can't read the cooking instructions. |
Ha ha! I bought a Japanese Cookbook in English in the states. It tells me what everything is (spices, vegetables, vinegar, etc.) and what to expect as far as the taste. 1 USA, 82,347 Japan!!!!! |
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chi-chi-
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 194
Location: In la-la land
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by chi-chi- on Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Ha ha! I bought a Japanese Cookbook in English in the states. It tells me what everything is (spices, vegetables, vinegar, etc.) and what to expect as far as the taste. |
That works when you cook from scratch, but many things here are in packages -- yakisoba, curry -- and I'm sure your book doesn't have EVERY box, bottle, or package label on it to help you identify what the contents are. You will either have to guess, or learn to read. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
When will you have the time to study Japanese if you're working 11 hours a day, 6 days a week? The answer is simple: you won't. And you'll burn yourself out shortly after you get started.
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JZEr is forgetting the obvious fact that in order to advance in the language you actually have to use what you know. This means by talking to people and using the language for communicative purposes.
If you are working two or three jobs, on the train commuting to different places (unlike the US passengers on trains dont chat with other commuters) coming home at 10 o'clock at night, studying for two hours after taking a bath and working all day, there leaves no time for actual conversing with people and using the language. If you have ever had a conversation with people who can not speak English, the patience factor for having a conversation wears thin very quickly. You will actually find there is some resistance to speaking Japanese with foreigners and many Japanese will try and speak English to you or not at all. Some Japanese will even avoid you even if you can speak Japanese. A few will be relieved that you can speak Japanese, but for the most part you will be speaking with relative strangers, and it takes a while to build up a rapport or have something in common to talk about. Maybe if you are with your friends it will be easier but my guess is your inner circle you will be surrounded by English-speaking japanese and other foreigners. A large majority of foreigners at NOVA my guess is do not speak japanese, and Zzonk will tell you that at NOVA there is something of an anti-academic fringe where some will think if you study Japanese you are weird and anti-social, even though you live in Japan. Learning Japanese takes work, lots of study, which means not going out with your work mates drinking and partying after work. You can stay at home and study and go to snack bars, but you probably wont make too many foreign friends if you spend your time study. Its usually a matter or priorities, and those who become good at Japanese have to know how to become social hermits, or be selective in their social circle or choice of friends. hanging around with foreigners after work or going to Gaspanic (big foreign bar in Roppongi) in Tokyo you wont learn much Japanese.
You will find it pretty hard to have adult conversations with people when you only have a limited vocabulary of a few hundred words and limited grammar. Japanese are not really that good at foreign languages and the majority wont know how to dumb down or simplify Japanese so you can understand it if you are at am elementary level, so they avoid speaking to you altogether. Of course everyone has to start somewhere, but it will take you at least a year just to learn the basics of sentence structure, use of prepositions and adverbs, maybe learn a couple dozen adjectives (of which there are two kinds there too) how to create negative sentences, past tense forms etc. Once you learn the basic forms then you actually need to have something that you will want to communicate and discuss with people. Im sure your a nice guy and all, but if your whole world revolves around work teaching English and making money there probably wont be a lot to talk about except the "20 questions" I mentioned above. Dating girls is always possible, but with the experience of hindsight, even when married to a Japanese woman its like "never the twain shall meet". The sexes have different agendas across a language and cultural divide. I have had Japanese girlfriends and though many are very nice, you sometimes have to question their motives in wanting to go out with you, e.g. to speak English for free, have a status symbol etc.
To learn Japanese I would spend hours in snack bars and yakitoriya chatting up the locals, on top of hours of studying. This is impossible if you are working all kinds of hours in a very demanding and tiring job. You will also not be allowed to use Japanese in all the time you are teaching in your classes as well. Many Japanese have a resistance to seeing or hearing broken japanese come out of a white face. They will not be rude to you like they are in france and Germany if you speak the language badly, but they will often express profound amazement as if they had discovered a trained chimpanzee. I speak Japanese quite well now, but in the beginning i would get lots of "Nihongo jouzu desu ne" which literally translates as "You speak good japanese" but really means "Your Japanese sucks but we appreciate the effort you are making to butcher our language". They stop saying that when your Japanese gets good. I have recently also seen comments by people where Japanese people would speak about you in Japanese, to your face and make rude comments, assuming you dont understand what they are saying. Japanese think their language is impenetrable, and that foreigners cant possibly learn to understand japanese, and are often surprised to find they can and speak it to near native fluency, and to discover your Japanese is better than their English.
I watch quite a lot of TV and as Zzonkmiles says, the vocabulary you hear on TV does not resemble any words in Englsih so you can not 'catch' words. TV will be just a blur until you get quite good or to an intermediate level. Quiz shows are pretty easy as they are formulaic and patterned and you can guess what is going on. In sense you are eavesdropping, it is all one-way and you can not interact with the TV. Great for listening and comprehension practice though.
Even words that once came from English are changed into Japanese and become Japanese words. Television becomes "terebi" and baseball becomes "bay-su-bo-ru". McDonalds becomes "Makku-dona-rudo". Say the original English word for these and often Japanese people wont understand you. Word order is back to front with the verb at the end. Sometimes the negative comes at the very end. You wont know if its a negative or not until they say the whole sentence. Subjects are often ommitted so you have to guess who they are talking about. Japanese use different personal pronouns depending on who they are talking to. There are six ways of saying "I" and "you" in Japanese.
It is possible to speak directly in Japanese but many Japanese will speak in a roundabout fuzzy way so as not to cause offence or to speak with consideration for the listener. Fillers are often used to convey meaning rather than words.
So in a sense you have to learn a complete new syntax and vocabulary from scratch, and this is even before you have started attacking the writing system which has 3 alphabets: katakana, hiragana and Kanji. |
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nicyvesweet
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Ha ha! I bought a Japanese Cookbook in English in the states. It tells me what everything is (spices, vegetables, vinegar, etc.) and what to expect as far as the taste. |
That works when you cook from scratch, but many things here are in packages -- yakisoba, curry -- and I'm sure your book doesn't have EVERY box, bottle, or package label on it to help you identify what the contents are. You will either have to guess, or learn to read. |
I can read a little Japanese, but I'm no Kanji queen. It gives preferred brands of pre-packaged goods. In fact, the first half of the book is ingredients and cookware. The recipes that are in it are easy enough to follow. Also, I don't entirely mind making things from scratch. Cooking is growing on me tremendously. If anyone wants to get it from Amazon, the name is The traditions, techniques, ingredients and recipes: Japanese Cooking by Emi Kazuko. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Paul wrote:
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| unlike the US passengers on trains don�t chat with other commuters |
Same as in Germany, you know what I say, try to talk to them anyways!! Strike up conversations with old lonely people. It has been my experience that they will talk to you. When I was first learning German, I used to chat with old people on the train and they appreciated the effort. I do not remember getting any rude looks. Also I think some of them were just happy to have someone to talk to.
| Quote: |
| Many Japanese have a resistance to seeing or hearing broken japanese come out of a white face. They will not be rude to you like they are in france and Germany if you speak the language badly, but they will often express profound amazement as if they had discovered a trained chimpanzee. |
Actually this comment is interesting. Maybe some people can tell me what they think but I have had the feeling that people from other countries always think that as soon as they hear your English accent or find out you are from an English speaking country that you cannot possibly speak their language.
Furthermore Paul, I think that I already posted that I will probably just have to save my $25,000 the first year and then cut down on the hours and try to learn Japanese. So I am not sure why you were repeating that.
| Quote: |
| never the twain shall meet |
Also, I do not mean to be stupid but what did you mean by this phrase!! |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Paul wrote:
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| I have had Japanese girlfriends and though many are very nice, you sometimes have to question their motives in wanting to go out with you, e.g. to speak English for free, have a status symbol etc. |
OK, is that any different that in your home country? Sometimes you have to question the motives of women in your home country as well? Women have to question men�s motives as well!!! The only difference is that I would guess is that most ESL teachers live normal lives in their home countries, so they have less reason to worry about the motives of the opposite sex. But rich people in our home countries have the same problem, as well as professional athletes, models, etc.. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
OK, is that any different that in your home country? Sometimes you have to question the motives of women in your home country as well? Women have to question men�s motives as well!!! The only difference is that I would guess is that most ESL teachers live normal lives in their home countries, so they have less reason to worry about the motives of the opposite sex. But rich people in our home countries have the same problem, as well as professional athletes, models, etc.. |
Hey JZer,
Whilst it is true that some people here will only be interested in you because they can learn English from you or because you'd be considered a status symbol, it takes an incredibly naive person not to recognise this (most of the time, it's really obvious....at least, that's been my experience). Or maybe I'm just really perceptive !
I've had Japanese people wanting to be my friend, and acting like total English leeches (i.e. they will only speak English with you and won't want to help you with Japanese)....to that I say get rid of them !
There are heaps of quality people here who will want to genuinely be your friend or girlfriend....sure it takes a while to find them, but they exist. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: |
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And another thing JZer, just out of curiosity (and you dont have to tell if you dont want to), how have you come up with the aforementioned figure of $25,000 ?
Are you going to purchase real estate in Japan or your home country?
If you need some assistance on this issue I may be able to help...I frequently write about real estate trends
best, |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Quote:
I have had Japanese girlfriends and though many are very nice, you sometimes have to question their motives in wanting to go out with you, e.g. to speak English for free, have a status symbol etc.
JZer wrote:
OK, is that any different that in your home country? |
Yup. Pretty different, JZ. You are not talking about a fellow countryperson dating you. Chances are, you won't find that person doing these things that Japanese women might do:
1. Just use you as a person to impress their friends. Hey, look! I've got a foreigner on my arm! (but I don't talk to him when I'm around my friends) I've seen enough of those in my years here.
2. Use you as a gift giver or meal buyer. All she has to do in return is smile, coo, and lean on your shoulder a lot. Granted, this is probably more a thing that J guys fall into, but who knows with newbie foreigners?
3. Use you for a bed partner. Lots of girls who live near the military are into this. Think it's still cool? Read about the STDs prevalent in younger Japanese women. Feel protected? Think about how you'll react when you see her holding onto another foreigner in the next gaijin bar you go to, because that type will usually go with any foreigner.
4. Use you for English practice. |
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