Job Discussion Forums

[Nagoyaguy]

Frankly, I dont give a rat's ass what would help you out. You didnt ASK for information about that, just about medicine in general. Is your ego so generous in size that everything must relate to YOU?

This thread was not about personal outcomes and individual situations. Just about ideas in general. But, while we are on the subject, let me ask you, what forms of treatment or care do you think are baseless? Or is everything equal in your universe?

[ShapeSphere]

Moonraven yet again you test people's patience to the full. Quite why the moderator hasn't sorted you out is a mystery. I can't sit idly by and watch you ruin yet another debate.

You call Nagoyaguy a troll, which is utterly absurd when Nagoyaguy has remained incredibly patient and civilised in the face of your extreme aggression and rudeness.

You were the one who said to Nagoyaguy:

[sojourner]

Nagoyaguy,

Re your comments on acupuncture.

I, myself, have never undergone any such treatment, nor, have I read very much about its theory. However, I feel that I should point out a couple of things .

You seem to imply that acupuncture appears a "bit suss", as people have benefitted even when needles have not actually penetrated the patient's skin, and even when mere pressure has been applied to acupuncture points.

From what little I know about the practice of modern acupuncture, it would appear that actual penetration by needles is not considered absolutely necessary - many practitioners, nowadays, use electrical impulses or laser to stimulate the pertinent acupuncture points. Also, if you often suffer from motion sickness, you may wish to go to your local chemist shop and buy a motion sickness wrist band, which includes a press-stud that applies pressure against a particular acupuncture point - I have never used it, but from what I've heard, it appears "to work" ! Thus, it would appear that the practice of using needles that actually penetrate the skin, is mainly the domain of the more conservative and traditional practitioners. However, I could be wrong here - it's quite possible that, in some cases, the traditional use of needles may be necessary. But regardless of whether needles, physical pressure, or some more high -tech method is used, what is important is whether the acupuncture points DO exist, their connection to some sort of "energy flow", and the relationship of all of this to physical health.

BTW, in Australia, there are a number of GPs who compliment their orthodox approaches with acupuncture. These people have all undergone specialised and lengthy training, often o'seas, in acupuncture. If those medical professionals merely thought that acupuncture is beneficial for its "placebo effect" only , do you honestly think that such people would would have devoted their time and money undergoing training in such an esoteric field ?

Peter

[Nagoyaguy]

Peter, those are good points, and are worth investigation. The key lies in the "chi", I think. Are the points used in acupuncture effective because;

a/ they are meridians of life essence
b/ they are bone, joint, or tendon nerve bundles
c/ the patient believed they are effective
d/ other

It is a good question. Me, I go with the simpler explanations that do not require centuries of scientific thought and research to be thrown out.

As to other points, I bow to the opinion of the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud), a non profit organization of health care professionals;

The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment.
Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge
Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that acupuncture is effective against any disease.

Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other psychologic mechanisms.
The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings,
Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture treatment,
Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.
Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest

You may wish to read their position paper on the subject. It is most instructive;

http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html

[some waygug-in]

Nagoyaguy, thank you for the link.

Here's another of my own.

http://www.ileanalongclinic.co.uk/acupuncture%20questions.htm

There are some new theories as to how acupuncture might work, one is that the needles or pressure on certain points triggers the release of endorphins.

I'm not saying I understand this any more than you do, but there is certainly more here than meets the eye.

Chi energy, yes that is a bit vague and meaningless.

Here is a more modern site dealing with acupuncture and its
uses.

http://consensus.nih.gov/cons/107/107_statement.htm#2_1._What


from the site:


Efficacy for Specific Disorders.
There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy.

Much of the research is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonable studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain.

There is evidence that acupuncture does not demonstrate efficacy for cessation of smoking and may not be efficacious for some other conditions.

Although many other conditions have received some attention in the literature and, in fact, the research suggests some exciting potential areas for the use of acupuncture, the quality or quantity of the research evidence is not sufficient to provide firm evidence of efficacy at this time.

And regarding homeopathy:

http://www.alternativescience.com/voodo-science.htm

Limburg University is Holland's centre for control of epidemic diseases (equivalent to Atlanta or Porton Down) and Knipschild is its director.

Homeopathy is widely practised in Holland and the Dutch government came under pressure from adherents to make homeopathic remedies available under the Dutch National Health Service. Dutch skeptics vocally opposed any such use of public funds on what they regarded as quackery.

To settle the question, the Dutch government commissioned a study of clinical trials of homeopathy by medical scientists at the department of epidemiology and health care at Limburg. Their task was to analyse clinical trials that had been done on homeopathy and say whether the investment of public money was justified by the evidence.

The team analysed 105 published studies. They found that 81 trials demonstrated positive results compared to a placebo, while 24 showed no positive effects, and concluded that 'there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homeopathy, but only by means of well-performed trials.'

Further evaluation, however, is not what Dr Park has in mind for homeopathy. It seems to me that the case of homeopathy is a particularly interesting one because it also illustrates how scientific intolerance can result simply from a failure of scientific imagination -- even when the facts are visible to all.

[ChinaMovieMagic]

Perhaps it's time for this Thread to follow in the footsteps of the President of National Council Against Health Fraud...
=============================================




President of National Council Against Health Fraud Dies
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Renner,MD, 67, of Blue Springs, MO, passed away following emergency heart surgery on September 2 at St. Joseph's Health Center. Dr. Renner was a clinical professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City Medical School and the president of the National Council Against Health Fraud, which now calls itself the National Council for Reliable Health Information.

The council has for many years been synonymous with chiropractic and alternative-care bashing. This tiny group of self-proclaimed fraud investigators has consistently taken adversarial positions against the vast majority of established and emerging alternative forms of health care, many times seemingly discounting or all together ignoring the latest research.

Dr. Renner was also the chief medical officer for HealthScout.com, an internet health information site which is already showing a distinct prejudice similar to the NCAHF.

The council has been directed by only a handful of people, but their names have become notorious in the chiropractic profession:

Charles Duvall,DC
Board Chairman

John Renner,MD
President

William Jarvis,PhD
Executive Director

Stephen Barrett,MD
Book Sales

And while friends, family and colleagues will certainly miss Dr. Renner, not many chiropractors will likely miss his comments on radio, television, in the Kansas City Star, in Prevention magazine, at HealthScout.com, or when testifying before Congress.


Dynamic Chiropractic - October 2, 2000, Volume 18, Issue 21

Page printed from:
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/18/21/15.html

[ChinaMovieMagic]

Tim Bolen - Consumer Advocate

This "Millions of Health Freedom Fighters - Newsletter" is about the battle between "Health" and "Medicine" on Planet Earth. Tim Bolen is an op/ed writer with extensive knowledge of the activities of a subversive organization calling itself the "quackbusters," and that organization's attempts to suppress, and discredit, any, and all health modalities that compete with the allopathic (MD) paradigm for consumer health dollars. The focus of the newsletter is on the ongoing activities, battles, politics, and the victories won by members of the "Health Freedom Movement" against the "quackbusters" It details "who the quackbusters are, what they are, where they are operating, when they appear, and how they operate - and how easy it is to beat them..."

For background information on the "Battle between Health and Medicine" go to: www.savedrclark.net. A copy of THIS newsletter, and older ones, are viewable at the website http://www.quackpotwatch.org.

For EVEN MORE interesting and related articles go to http://www.bolenreport.com.


Related articles on this site:


Black PR and the FDA
Tim Bolen of Consumers against health fraud has written before on a phenomenon called the "quackbusters". Those are people who work for the interests of big pharma, "keeping the competition down". They masqerade as concerned citizens and complain about the...

Quackbusters trick Federal Trade Commission
7 July 2003 - In the US, reports Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen, the "quackbusters" of the National Council for Health Fraud are busy attacking natural alternatives to pharmaceutical medicines. Bolen contends that Stephen Barrett, and Robert Baratz are not alone...

[ChinaMovieMagic]

DELETE

[ChinaMovieMagic]

Finally (for me...)

Everybody in the North American Health Freedom Movement knows who the "quackbusters" are. It's been said, often, "If you're not on Stephen Barrett's dubious "quackwatch" website, then you're NOT IMPORTANT in REAL health care. The more space he gives you, the bigger the threat you are."

But the question that's always there is "who's winning the war - us, or them?"
Well, believe it or not, the US Government did a survey through the National Science Foundation (NSF), in 2001, about our war, and the results will ASTOUND you.

So, let's ask the obvious questions, the ones the NSF was finding the answers for, and have the NSF study answer them...

The Questions and the Answers...

(Q) How big an effect is the New York ad agency, and it's array of lower "quackbuster" minions (i.e.; NCAHF, quackwatch.com), having on America's thoughts about Alternative Medicine?

(A) The NSF says "In response to the 2001 NSF survey, an overwhelming majority (88 percent) agreed that "there are some good ways of treating sickness that medical science does not recognize." (See appendix table 7-58.) The American Medical Association defines alternative medicine as any diagnostic method, treatment, or therapy that is "neither taught widely in U.S. medical schools nor generally available in U.S. hospitals." However, at least 60 percent of U.S. medical schools devote classroom time to the teaching of alternative therapies, generating controversy within the scientific community."

(Q) But the drug companies have INCREASED their TV advertising, the "quackbusters" have infiltrated all of the "AltMed" internet discussion groups, Barrett and his cronies have quadrupled the number of anti-health websites, and the quackpots at FTC have INCREASED their attacks on AltMed. Isn't this having an effect?

(A) The NSF says "Nevertheless, the popularity of alternative medicine appears to be increasing. A recent study documented a 50 percent increase in expenditures and a 25 percent increase in the use of alternative therapies between 1990 and 1997 (Eisenberg et al. 1998) A large minority of Americans (42 percent) used alternative therapies in 1997 and spent a total of at least $27 billion on them."

(Q) Are the "quackbusters" winning ANYWHERE?

(A) The NSF says "the authors of the study reported that the use of alternative therapies was: at least as popular in other industrialized nations as it was in the United States."

(Q) Who, exactly, in the US is into Alt Med these days?

(A) The NSF says "more popular among women (49 percent) than among men (38 percent) and less popular among African Americans (33 percent) than among members of other racial groups (44.5 percent); and higher among those who had attended college, among those who had incomes above $50,000, and among those who lived in the western United States."

(Q) But the "quackbusters" rail at herbal medicine, massage, megavitamins, self-help groups, folk remedies, energy healing, and homeopathy. Are they having an effect?

(A) The NSF says "Furthermore, among the 16 therapies included in the study, the largest increases between 1990 and 1997 were in the use of herbal medicine (a 380 percent increase), massage, megavitamins, self-help groups, folk remedies, energy healing, and homeopathy. [60]" And they also say ""therapeutic touch," was taught at more than 100 colleges and universities in 75 countries."

(Q) But the quackbusters call anyone who believes in AltMed "stupid." Are they right? Is it just s few dumb people who believe in AltMed?

(A) The NSF clearly shows in their report appendix table 7-58 "http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind02/append/c7/at07-58.pdf" just the opposite. In fact, the study shows that 88% of all adults believe in AltMed, 90% of all Males, 88% of all Females, 83% of all "less than high school graduates," 89% of all High School Graduates, 92% of college graduates, and 89% of those who are very interested and very well informed on the issue.

(Q) So who IS buying into the quackkbuster scam?

(A) According to the NSF Study, less than 1% of the population.

In Conclusion...

Despite all the money being funneled into the project through the New York ad agency, America isn't much buying into the big lie. Big pharma's not getting their money's worth.
Stay tuned...

Tim Bolen - Consumer Advocate

This "Millions of Health Freedom Fighters - Newsletter" is about the battle between "Health and Medicine" on Planet Earth. Tim Bolen is an op/ed writer with extensive knowledge of the activities of a subversive organization calling itself the "quackbusters," and that organization's attempts to suppress, and discredit, any, and all health modalities that compete with the allopathic (MD) paradigm for consumer health dollars. The focus of the newsletter is on the ongoing activities, battles, politics, and the victories won by members of the "Health Freedom Movement" against the "quackbusters" It details "who the quackbusters are, what they are, where they are operating, when they appear, and how they operate - and how easy it is to beat them..."

For background information on the "Battle between Health and Medicine" go to: http://www.savedrclark.net/by_whom2.htm. A copy of THIS newsletter, and older ones, are viewable at the website http://www.quackpotwatch.org/default.htm.

For EVEN MORE interesting and related articles go to http://www.bolenreport.com.

[homersimpson]

ChinaMovieMagic, in response to, "Nice weather today, huh?"

"This one time, at band camp ..."

The National Council on the Underused Elephants of the Sahara recently reported that flying pigs cause an undue amount of pollution.

Beer kills brain cells, but only on Tuesdays when capitalism reaches its apex with Uranus and Saturn and Mercury collide in a frenzy.

[Nagoyaguy]

CMM, your endless appeals to authority really dont matter. I could also make long and boring posts written by biased observers too, but it wouldnt matter.

The "North American Health Freedom Movement"?!?!

bwahahahaha! Pretty funny. There is no war between hairbrained hippy holistics and anal retentive science nerds. You are dancing around the issue without getting to the core. You post stuff that I already agree with, at least in a limited fashion.

WHAT IS "CHI"? And why can't it be measured if it is, in fact, energy, as is so often said. The effects (pain relief, stress reduction) are sometimes apparent. the cause is not. Is it "chi" or is it psychological or is it physical? If you believe it is "chi", then you better be prepared to back it up with big time research.

As the late Carl Sagan put it so well, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

[ChinaMovieMagic]

(my final post on this topic)
RE: What is QI?
This weekend I'm going down to Shanghai to do Tai Chi Pushing Hands w/my teacher/friends. It's a most delightful form of Qi cultivation, with a clear feedback method--the partner/opponent. Qi Cultivators can tell who also is an effective cultivator...and who isn't. No need for Black Belts etc. No need for more "proof."
=============================================
http://twm.co.nz/DrYan_qi.htm

To summarize, based on a series of qigong experiments I have conducted over the last ten years in collaboration with many leading universities and scientific institutions in China (including, but not limited to, Tsinghua University, Beijing University, Zhongshan University, and within the Academia Sinica, the Institute of High Energy Physics, the Institute of Biology, the Institute of Electrical Engineering, and the Institute of Microbiology), we have preliminarily discovered that the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information. Moreover, qi can be influenced, disturbed, or controlled by the thoughts of a qi-emitter or people nearby. At the same time, according to different purposes of the experiments, qi can also display different attributes, such as being bi-directional, distance-transcending, self-controllable, reversible, and targeting. Some experiments involving chain reactions have also been successfully completed.

The scientific papers on these qigong experiments have been rigorously reviewed by highly accomplished academics, including Professor Qian Xuesen (Tsien Hsue-sen), former Chairman and current Honorary Chairman of Chinese National Association of Scientists, Ph.D., California Institute of Technology, formerly Goddard Professor, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology; Professor Zhao Zhongyao, an eminent expert on nuclear physics in China, member, Academia Sinica, an early academic advisor to Dr. C.N. Yang who later won a Nobel Price in physics (being a member of Academia Sinica is roughly equivalent to being a fellow of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences); Professor Bei Shizhang, biophysics expert, world renowned biophysics teacher, member, Academia Sinica; Professor Feng Xinfang, microbiologist, member, Academia Sinica; and Professor Hu Haichang, thermophysicist, member, Academia Sinica. After they became aware of, participated in, or reviewed the scientific papers on the qigong experiments I conducted in collaboration with a number of experts and professors from prestigious Chinese universities, such as Tsinghua University and Beijing University, they all acknowledged that qigong is highly scientific in nature.

Professor Qian Xuesen has unequivocally advocated the creation of human body science. At the same time, he predicted that the integration of Traditional Chinese Medicine, qigong, special human body functions, and a unified theoretical and scientific work will result in a great leap forward in modern medicine. Furthermore, he suggested that this event will revolutionize modern science as a whole, and that a second cultural renaissance will arise and come to fruition in China.

[ouyang]

[Nagoyaguy]

Interesting post.

Pity your chiro could only give you a "one shot" of chi. Although again, if it is connected with the earth's energy, then that gives us something to measure for or detect, doesnt it?

As to your martial arts experience, there are a couple of possible explanations.

1/ Muscle fatigue. You get tired after lifting someone for the first time, so the second time they feel heavier

2/ Psychological suggestion. You feel a kind of obligation to go along with the trick, even though you know it is a trick at some level.

There is a great website that discusses martial arts called ;

www.bullshido.com

It tries to separate the mythic from the real in the field of martial arts. Some great discussions going on there. They really get into the reality of guys who claim to direct chi, or use it to stop attackers without touching them.

Little premature on putting Johnny to rest, my apologies. I think I got him mixed up with Bob Hope for some reason. Alzheimer's, probably.

[moonraven]

nagoyaguy:

I believe the question YOU started with was: Are you skeptical or are you credulous?

I have made no claims for any treatment modalities outside of my own experience. That may mean that I am skeptocal of others, or it may mean that I am credulous. I really don't care, as the quarion was obviously loaded so that you could get on your soapbox against alternative ANYTHING.

I gave my opinion, based on the only experience which matters to me--my own.

Since you, and a couple of other trolls are incapable of respecting my right to have my own opinion, I choose to terminate my participation in this thread.