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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Redfivestandingby wrote: |
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| Perhaps this should be left to historians to address, but one cannot forget that China was, not that long ago in history during the fall of the the last dynasty, divided and occupied by 7 Western countries and Japan, |
I realize this is often repeated in China as if it would be necessarilly bad but look at how Hong Kong developed under British rule. HK wouldn't be any different than the mainland if it were not for this Western influence. Not to mention there wouldn't be any Shenzhen or Guangzhou.
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Matter of fact - Hongkongers too prefer "squatting" when they have no choice but to use a wester-style toilet.
Go to HK and see how many toilets have been outfitted with squatties.
The Chinese not sitting on those seats in western-style toilets were a repeated joke in the last days of waning British rule.
There was a Chinese legislator who made himself rather notorious for his views on the matter - Mr Bong "Toilet" he used to be nick-named.
It seems to be an incontrovertible truth that Chinese avoid exposing their skin to the germs left behind by another toilet user. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
Matter of fact - Hongkongers too prefer "squatting" when they have no choice but to use a wester-style toilet.
Go to HK and see how many toilets have been outfitted with squatties.
The Chinese not sitting on those seats in western-style toilets were a repeated joke in the last days of waning British rule.
There was a Chinese legislator who made himself rather notorious for his views on the matter - Mr Bong "Toilet" he used to be nick-named.
It seems to be an incontrovertible truth that Chinese avoid exposing their skin to the germs left behind by another toilet user. |
Here's a nasty thought ...
That bog you just went into??? The Chinese guy who came in and found the 'sit-down' before you just got through walking past the urinals and climbed up onto the toilet seat with his feet and 'squatted' there.
You just sat down, not where his relatively clean, pristine bum just sat but where his feet were placed after walking 10 miles in the great outdoors amongst the goobers and dog doo.
And you wondered what that rash was on your bum. 
Don't you feel like you need a full body condom at times like this? |
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Redfivestandingby
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 1076
Location: Back in the US...
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Do you seriously think these countries did not invade China?
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Like I said, I don't know much about the history so I don't know if it was an invasion or an attempt to protect their own people, assets, and a situation gone out of control.
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| I would venture to say that the 8 countries had already occupied China before the Boxer Rebellion. |
Your statement sounds like you're not sure either but I agree with it too. Like I said before, anyone who knows please jump in.
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What makes you think that "Chinese people [were] sick of foreigners"? What makes you think a people could be so agitated as to be "going around killing them"?
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Xenophobia, racism, prejudice. All still present in China today. It's not uncommon to hear here and there of a foreigner getting beat up. It happened to a friend two years ago. And they beat the Chinese friend just because he was friends with the laowai. This same Chinese friend would always get in trouble with other Chinese for defending us.
Chinese are still very racist and prejudiced. Find yourself lost somewhere, have someone cheat you, accuse that person of cheating you, and all that this Chinese person needs to say is, "The foreigner cheated me", and you'll be immediately surrounded by 50 Chinese men(where do they come from out of the blue?) ready to pounce on you. The further you go away from the city the more volatile. This has happened to me 3 times. Very scary I can assure you. No amount of reasoning matters. You are one of 'them'.
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| No doubt, British rule provided the technology and management for Hong Kong's development, but to imply that -- as your statement may seem to suggest -- it was solely because of some sort of superiority innate in the British blood and in their management of "development" or "civilization" is perhaps too simplistic. |
I think you're reading way too much into what I wrote. I don't think there's anything in my statement that says/implies anything about British blood superiority or anything of the sort. That's quite unfair to say that I was hinting or implying that. I merely stated that HK developed radically under British rule and therefore other areas around it developed too. That's a fact. Anyone else can argue as to the reasons why. I didn't and it's not something I care about. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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LOL.
The obvious reply is that HK and Macao developed as a result of foreign influence in China.
The foreigners were kicked out to these islands because of things like shipping opium into the country to make a buck.
You'll also find that Shanghainese are almost universally hated because of the arrogance developed from being in close proximity to foreigners.
The Boxers were a fanatical Christian sect also resulting from foreign influence.
As far as the way the mainland has developed as opposed to HK, I suggest you look at the way Taiwan has developed and they were only freed from totalitarian KMT rule in 1996.
It's funny, I look at your current location and see a possible reason for the different treatment you received than the rest of us.
I personally have no problems with the locals but they sure as heck will express their displeasure of the USA at the moment in most of my classes.
When we discuss economics including things like Unocal, steel, blokades, etc. there is an unmistakable opinion that the USA is holding China back because your country is 'not as free' economically as you would like to believe. In terms of the WTO, they see a country that, as Orwell would put it, is 'more equal than others'.
Look at it this way ... of the two countries, the USA has more socialist programs than their supposed communist state.
When you look at the Unocal/CNOOC issue without the sanitized US Senate version of the story you find that the CNOOC does not own a refinery in China. Unocal owns the biggest refinery in China. Where does this leave your protectionism in their eyes?
A lot of Chinese are angry at the moment and from a scan of the news, it is hard not to agree with their opinions at times. You have also been siding with the Japanese and Rice seems to offend with every utterance to the media.
They are no more Xenophobic than the rest of the world viewing American foreign policy at the moment.
Were non-Americans treated in the same way at your location? |
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herman
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 42
Location: City by the Bay (SF)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Like I said, I don't know much about the history so I don't know if it was an invasion or an attempt to protect their own people, assets, and a situation gone out of control. |
en.wikipedia.org is generally a good source for all sorts of things. Check Boxer Rebellion there.
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| I merely stated that HK developed radically under British rule and therefore other areas around it developed too. That's a fact. Anyone else can argue as to the reasons why. I didn't and it's not something I care about. |
Sorry, just a conjecture on my part since you did not clarify. If you don't care about the reasons why and didn't imply any, then there's nothing to talk about there.
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| Xenophobia, racism, prejudice. |
Do you think that was just an innate characteristic of Chinese culture? Or did it have some of its roots from the period when Westerners and Japan were taking advantage of China? Not that I condone the xenophobic and racist mentality and actions of those Chinese who have beaten you or any other foreigner up. Most of China is still horribly uneducated and very poor, and the government also has a pretty easy means of controlling and influencing people's minds, or adding oil to fire (as happened during the protests and riots against Japan not that long ago). There is no excuse for racism and violence per se -- never -- but perhaps one can see them differently when put in perspective. I do not imagine, for example, that you would advocate an eye for an eye, which really solves nothing, right? (I myself wish the Chinese had someone like Gandhi -- "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind")
A country that went through rule under an incapable, corrupted court (especially under the empress Cixi), foreign invasion (physical or otherwise), civil war between the Communists and KMT, rule under a dictatorship/oligarchy that brought them supression, violence, and a devasting "Cultural Revolution" which destroyed much traditional cultural and moral values, not to mention forced separation of families. Today, corruption, violence, and oppression by the government is still pretty rampant. These, too, are facts. These facts have nothing to do with those guys who beat you up because you were a foreigner, or do they? That's your call. What they did was disgusting and wrong nonetheless, that's indisputable.
Among the xenophobic, racist, and prejudiced Chinese, you did not find non-xenophobic, non-racist, unprejudiced Chinese? |
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herman
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 42
Location: City by the Bay (SF)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Matter of fact - Hongkongers too prefer "squatting" when they have no choice but to use a wester-style toilet.
Go to HK and see how many toilets have been outfitted with squatties. |
I don't know what Hongkongers you met, Roger, but I have lived there for more than 7 years and no one I know prefers squatting to western-style toilets. Maybe some of the older generation and "hillbillies" prefer squatties, and yes I've seen public toilets with only squatties (creepy), but your statement is overgeneralization and should be reversed: Most sane Hongkongers today only use and prefer western-style toilets to squatties unless they have no choice. I have not seen new toilets equipped with squatties, but maybe you and I roam in differents parts of Hong Kong. |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Shonisi, I would call you to task on a lot of things, but mostly this
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| The Boxers were a fanatical Christian sect also resulting from foreign influence. |
My knowledge is otherwise but rather than expect you to believe me I did a little research just to confirm what I thought. Maybe you need to study your Chinese history a little more before lecturing others.
For your information.
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When China was defeated by Japan in 1895, European powers responded with a policy they called, "carving up the Chinese melon." Following the partitioning of Africa among European powers, they turned their sights to what they saw as a terminally weak Chinese government. European powers and America began to scramble for what was called "spheres of interest." These spheres of interest involved holding leases for all railway and commercial privileges in various regions. The Russians got Port Arthur, the British got the New Territories around Hong Kong, the Germans got a leasehold in Shantung, and the Americans got nothing. Concentrating largely on the Philipines and Guam, the Americans had missed the Chinese boat and so insisted on an "open door" policy in China in which commercial opportunities were equally available to all European powers and the political and territorial integrity of China remained untouched.
The imperial court responded to this foreign threat by giving aid to various secret societies. Traditionally, secret societies had been formed in opposition to imperial government; as such, they were certainly a threat to the Ch'ing government. However, anti-foreign sentiment had risen so greatly in China that the Empress Dowager believed that the secret societies could be the vanguard in a military expulsion of Europeans. This policy reached its climax in 1900 with the Boxer Rebellion.
The Boxers, or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists," were a religious society that had originally rebelled against the imperial government in Shantung in 1898. They practiced an animistic magic of rituals and spells which they believed made them impervious to bullets and pain. The Boxers believed that the expulsion of foreign devils would magically renew Chinese society and begin a new golden age. Much of their discontent, however, was focussed on the economic scarcity of the 1890's. They were a passionate and confident group, full of contempt for authority and violent emotions.
In reality, the Boxer rebellion could hardly be classified as either a rebellion or a war against the Europeans. China was largely under the control of regional Governors General; these regional officials ignored the Empress Dowager's instructions and put forth every effort to prevent disorder or any harm coming to foreigners. The Boxer Rebellion, then, was only limited to a few places, but concentrated itself in Beijing. The Western response was swift and severe. Within a couple months, an international force captured and occupied Beijing and forced the imperial government to agree to the most humiliating terms yet: the Boxer Protocol of 1901. Under the Boxer Protocol, European powers got the right to maintain military forces in the capital, thus placing the imperial government more or less under arrest. The Protocols suspended the civil service examination, demanded a huge indemnity to be paid to European powers for the losses they had suffered, and required government officials to be prosecuted for their role in the rebellion. In addition, the Protocols suspended all arms imports into the country.
Reform |
On the subject of toilets, why do any of you think the western pedestal is superior to the squatter? Particularly in public conveniences. In my mind the squat is infinately preferable, the only thing that touches anything is the soles of your shoes. |
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Redfivestandingby
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 1076
Location: Back in the US...
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Among the xenophobic, racist, and prejudiced Chinese, you did not find non-xenophobic, non-racist, unprejudiced Chinese? |
Of course!!! I married one as a matter of fact.  Her family is pretty cool with me too.
I hope I didn't come off as saying that all Chinese are this and that but as a society they tend to be x, y, and z. This forum has plenty of stories supporting such. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| cujobytes wrote: |
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The Boxers, or "The Righteous and Harmonious Fists," were a religious society that had originally rebelled against the imperial government in Shantung in 1898. They practiced an animistic magic of rituals and spells which they believed made them impervious to bullets and pain. The Boxers believed that the expulsion of foreign devils would magically renew Chinese society and begin a new golden age. Much of their discontent, however, was focussed on the economic scarcity of the 1890's. They were a passionate and confident group, full of contempt for authority and violent emotions.
In reality, the Boxer rebellion could hardly be classified as either a rebellion or a war against the Europeans. China was largely under the control of regional Governors General; these regional officials ignored the Empress Dowager's instructions and put forth every effort to prevent disorder or any harm coming to foreigners. The Boxer Rebellion, then, was only limited to a few places, but concentrated itself in Beijing. The Western response was swift and severe. Within a couple months, an international force captured and occupied Beijing and forced the imperial government to agree to the most humiliating terms yet: the Boxer Protocol of 1901. Under the Boxer Protocol, European powers got the right to maintain military forces in the capital, thus placing the imperial government more or less under arrest. The Protocols suspended the civil service examination, demanded a huge indemnity to be paid to European powers for the losses they had suffered, and required government officials to be prosecuted for their role in the rebellion. In addition, the Protocols suspended all arms imports into the country.
Reform |
On the subject of toilets, why do any of you think the western pedestal is superior to the squatter? Particularly in public conveniences. In my mind the squat is infinately preferable, the only thing that touches anything is the soles of your shoes. |
Great.
So what was it you were trying to teach me ... that Christ appeared to the Chinese resulting in the conversion of the Boxers? I suggest you take a look in the Royal Ontario Museum which currently displays a fraction of the Chinese artifacts in their collection which was supplied to them by the good Jesuit Brothers and even now outshines all the museums in Beijing.
You also make the same error as the other poster who assumes that any of the Chinese born this side of The Party taking power are aware or care about the history that came before.
Have you never had a discussion about the history of China with your students and found that you are the most educated person in Chinese history in the room?
You seek an excuse for xenophobia in history and put 2 plus 2 together to arrive at 5.
Current xenophobia in China is not as a result of what they know from history but what they currently are learning, present day. Try to find out how much of it is from the study of history and how much of it is from current DVDs, rap/hip hop music and the statements of Condoleeza Rice on behalf of the Neocon agenda. Then read some current newspapers and look at how the Chinese are being attacked at the prompting of the USA.
Regarding the squats ... they make perfect sense until you have a hip injury like I do and squatting puts you into agony. Why do you think they have all those thunder mugs that they all rush to clean out in the public loos on a morning. Some of it is nightly stuff but a lot of it is from the old and infirm. |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| So what was it you were trying to teach me ... that Christ appeared to the Chinese resulting in the conversion of the Boxers? |
That the boxers WEREN"T Christians.
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| They practiced an animistic magic of rituals and spells which they believed made them impervious to bullets and pain. The Boxers believed that the expulsion of foreign devils would magically renew Chinese society |
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| Current xenophobia in China is not as a result of what they know from history but what they currently are learning, present day. |
I'm well aware of that.
[/quote] |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| So what was it you were trying to teach me ... that Christ appeared to the Chinese resulting in the conversion of the Boxers? |
That the boxers WEREN"T Christians as you stated.
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| They practiced an animistic magic of rituals and spells which they believed made them impervious to bullets and pain. The Boxers believed that the expulsion of foreign devils would magically renew Chinese society |
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| Current xenophobia in China is not as a result of what they know from history but what they currently are learning, present day. |
I'm well aware of that. |
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benno
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 501
Location: Fake Mongolia
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| cujobytes wrote: |
On the subject of toilets, why do any of you think the western pedestal is superior to the squatter? Particularly in public conveniences. In my mind the squat is infinately preferable, the only thing that touches anything is the soles of your shoes. |
thats all very well
but why do they have such terrible aim...and sh it all over the floor  |
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cujobytes
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1031
Location: Zhuhai, (Sunny South) China.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| Dunno, but some a'hole did it here this morning, (modern offices) not only that but he couldn't even get the paper in the hole. I nearly threw up. |
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herman
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 42
Location: City by the Bay (SF)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:47 am Post subject: |
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| I hope I didn't come off as saying that all Chinese are this and that but as a society they tend to be x, y, and z. |
No, just hoping you would clarify that.  |
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herman
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 42
Location: City by the Bay (SF)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| but why do they have such terrible aim...and sh it all over the floor |
That's exactly the problem I have with squatties. Plus squatties tend to be poorly maintained and rarely cleaned. I don't want to have to worry about three things at the same thing:
1) making sure I aim well
2) making sure I keep my balance and not fall over
3) making sure all my clothes won't fall out suddenly
Actually, there's number 4: making sure you have toilet paper. Squatties never seem to have toilet paper. |
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