Job Discussion Forums

[cafebleu]

I don`t visit the caf as regularly as I did because I no longer live in Japan although I visit. But I`d like to make a comment about Mark`s assertions (as usual, nothing changes!) that essentially boil down to excuse-making for Japanese people and stereotyping of foreigners (been there, heard those time and time again in Japan - from Japanese people!).

About other posters` valid comments about the Japanese protectiveness regarding language - it does exist. It always has and it always will. It is the insular mentality that nobody can undersrtand the unique, monocultural/monoethnic Japanese except the Japanese themselves. This includes their language. It is also a remarkable self-deception.

For people who were and are a hybrid of Mongolian/Chinese/Korean/Ryukyu/Islander people and had and have so many different local dialects throughout Japan, remnants of a time when the dialects were truly different languages, the Japanese still succeed in
perpetuating the fairly easy to dismantle myth of `uniqueness`.

They manage to succeed in conveying this myth successfully as reality to some foreigners - ie those who have never been here, those who have been here for a visit, those who live here but don`t seem to be able to really understand what is going on AROUND them as opposed to their being the parcipant they think they are. A few posters here fit into that category!

As somebody who had considerable experience of life in Japan, in general Japanese people do have misplaced feelings of superiority regarding their language, as well as a clear insecurity. I only have Japanese friends who don`t play those games with me - but in my time in Japan I met plenty of Jp people who did. On the one hand they praise newcomers for their simple skills of one or two sentences in Japanese - on the other hand they tend to make little or no comment when a foreigner is relatively fluent, sometimes to the point of being irritated by it.

Many do feel threatened by a foreigner speaking their language. This has a lot to do with the peculiarities of the system in which they are still brought up - everybody else is `gaijin`, Japanese is a unique language for a unique people. It`s difficult to see how Japan is ever going to take its place in the world of the 21st century other than interact with the rest of the world when it suits them and then harp on continuously about `criminal foreigners` etc to show just how important drawing those lines are. Japan is paying the price now with its ageing population and it is only going to get worse.

I found (and so have many foreigners in Japan) that when I was outside class any number of Jp who spoke poor English to me (which I never, never corrected), both students and non students, would have no hesitation in slighting my Japanese or taking it upon themselves to correct my small mistake in a very noticeable way.

They weren`t so much trying to help me out as correct the gaijin who `can`t speak Japanese because it is too difficult.` Or maybe more likely it`s because I never studied it for 10 or 20 years unlike any no. of Japanese who show no evidence of that study.

An arrogance that I never manifested no matter how many mistakes, big and small, Japanese people who had studied English for far longer than I ever studied Japanese, made talking to me outside of class. It is more than language, the schizophrenic attitude is manifested in many aspects of life in Japan. In a way you often can`t win - you try to fit in with neighbours, for example, and follow all the neighbourhood block customs but they still won`t stop calling you `Gaijin` instead of using your name in some cases of ignorance too common in the countryside.

You understand appreciate aspects of Jp culture because you are culturally sensitive but many Japanese will not be pleased by your appreciation or your knowledge.

Far from being arrogant about it (Mark`s apparent free pass for the Japanese is that we foreigners supposedly criticise Japan to the Japanese etc so that`s why they have those attitudes), you can fit in because you understand aspects of life in Japan or show appreciation for Japanese customs or show you are knowledgeable in a way that is the opposite of arrogant and you will often get - `Ah, wakari sugi yo! - `You understand too much!` In my home country we are happy when foreigners and new immigrants or visitors understand a lot about us.

In one sense you cannot win with many Japanese. This is their problem, not ours. You will always be deemed the outsider even when you do your best to fit in - except when they want your money for the neighbourhood housewives to go on an outing or for a person`s funeral to which you won`t be invited. Their petty language obsession is a manifestation of a wider insecurity complex.

[Mark]

Cafeblue,

I don't think you really understood what I said. I believe that I referred to the "Japanese MYTH of uniqueness" rather than to Japanese uniqueness.

I also didn't say that Japanese act the way they do because of how foreigners act. I said that, in my experience, the average foreigner doesn't treat Japanese folks with a great deal of respect. It's not cause and effect. It's just that I'm not sure that foreigners treat Japanese any better than Japanese treat foreigners.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Japan or for the Japanese, but I also don't hate this country. I think that it's important to try to understand Japan from the Japanese point of view rather than just coming in and picking it apart from a Western point of view.

I would also add that you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about how and why people do things.

[Birdog3344]

[SEndrigo]

I think both Cafebleu and Mark have made good points here, and both of them are correct.

On one hand, many Japanese people are protective of their language, customs, culture, etc. and really believe they are unique, when in reality, few things in Japan are unique.

Chopsticks, rice, Kanji, ramen, gyoza, and many other things in Japan are not Japanese, but actually Chinese or have originally come from China.

When you live here for a while you realise that Japanese people are not as unique as they claim.

On the other hand, there ARE Japanese people who won't patronise you when you speak Japanese and will try really hard to help you improve and to become a functioning part of society.

These are the people we should be friends with. Who cares about ignorant villagers who call you "Gaijin" or won't acknowledge you. So what....there's no need to waste time on them.

[Mark]

I think Sendrigo's right that you get both types. Some people want to help you get inside, some people want to keep you outside.

The myth of Japanese uniqueness is a national myth. It may not be true but it's important for people. I think that Japanese people don't base their uniqueness on these different cultural elements (temple designs, food items, etc.), but rather on the totality of Japanese culture and on the idea that there's a special Japanese spirit or feeling.

There's a fairly major identity crises in Japan these days. A lot of people think that Japan is losing its identity. This is a common thing around the world of course, but in many countries it's not such a big deal. People are mostly worried about losing the things in their culture that they value. But in Japan, people value the fact (in their opinion) that Japan is a unique and special place.

In many other countries, people value particular values or cultural practices or whatever. But the value of collective uniqueness can't be preserved in an interconnected world. It's a big problem for people here.

Some of my Japanese friends really wonder about what it means to be Japanese today. They don't know what they can be proud of. Some people like to go to traditional festivals because they feel like they can get a bit of that old Japanese feeling that they fear is slipping away.

Anyway, I think we should be sensitive to the fact that, to many Japanese people, the future looks extremely scary.

[SEndrigo]

Very true, but if they are scared of the future, they must realise it's completely their own doing, not because foreigners decided to wash up on their shores !

There are some things to be concerned about if you're Japanese or if you plan on being here for a while, such as the low birth rate, declining property values, air pollution, etc.

But I suppose there are other things to be very optimistic about, such as improving economy, declining property values (which means it's much easier to buy a house now), still a safe and nice country to live in, etc.

I suppose it all depends on one's outlook...I happen to think things here are getting better, but maybe it's just me....

[Mark]

[D.O.S.]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It has been an interesting read.

Personally I think there are some important differences between Japan and other nations. But they are not as stark and dramatic and some here think.

Additionally, cultural differences in many nations can lead to great difficulties for a new teacher. But the differences found in Japan are often in fact helpful (from finding a level of employment/benefits you could not achieve at home to finding a mate). I hope the long term teachers who seem full of anger realise this.

Again, thank you for your comments.