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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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 Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:28 am Post subject: |
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why should looking for a decent wage not be associated with good teaching - above average wages here are, like everywhere else, usually the result of above average teaching skills - I'm just questioning what is usually the eventual outcome of a krap sallary, and noting that in my book krap sallaries, bad conditions and bad treatment very often go hand in hand. Remember mate for all your work ethic there is also something - just as airy fairy - we can term professional ethic - you know sticking as a group looking out for each other by showing a low tollerance to the antics of the FT exploiter. But hang on a sec, I just read....
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| The students deserve more for what they're paying, so why not be the one to give it to them? |
shizzzer Im not just supposed to be a clarion of moral virtue, but now my performance is directly correlated to those market forces that have created those fee levels. What a strange thought , which leads towards a principle of the more the more the employer charges the better we should teach - regardless of how much we are paid 
And poor ol' me always thinking that the better I became at my trade, the more I would be paid, which in turn raised my professional motivation levels, made we want protect my possition through good teaching performace, that had that spin-off effect of creating a good learning environment. But obvisously I was wrong
by the way ever think why there are so many apathetic local teachers who just go through the motions - could that be partly related to them looking at the future through a mental filter called appalling wages???????
Try telling them to put on a better show cause the kids have payed up - or is that kind of talk just for us god fearing whities |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul Barufaldi wrote: |
| The students deserve more for what they're paying, so why not be the one to give it to them? Consider the alternative. Attaining heaven points aside, there are plenty of reasons to maintain your work ethic in spite of any filthy near-sighted money grubbing that may be going on above you. One of which is that by lowering your standards, you stand to become a filthy nearsighted money grubber yourself. Also, the way I see it, if one starts losing their passion for this job, their value as a teacher degrades along with it. |
An excellent post. |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
And poor ol' me always thinking that the better I became at my trade, the more I would be paid, which in turn raised my professional motivation levels, made we want protect my possition through good teaching performace, that had that spin-off effect of creating a good learning environment. But obvisously I was wrong |
I didn't mean to say anybody should be working for peanuts. In my view, it's to someone's own benefit to do their job well regardless of the circumstances. If those circumstances are unfair, they should continue doing the job well while seeking out something better -for their own sake not that of the *beep* who's putting the screws to them. All Mr. Moneygrubber deserves is your resignation letter and the stress of losing a good employee when you move on to your newer and better job -or he may not even care. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. He's got enough problems of his own, what without a having a soul and all.
There are other options, I suppose. One could choose to throw in the towel, becoming cynical and apathetic himself. Another option might be staying all pissed off and stagnating at that crappy job rather than seeking out better opportunites. Or one could try to single handedly eradicate Chinese cronyism once and for all.
-actually to even do that last one temporarily on a small scale would be an astounding accomplishment!
Last edited by Paul Barufaldi on Tue May 30, 2006 12:15 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| All Mr. Moneygrubber deserves is your resignation letter and the stress of losing a good employee (if he even cares). |
and the students who paid all that money - where is your altruistic vision Mr. Barufaldi - not a mention of students, where does this leave your teaching ethics
Fortigurn one of your excellent short critiques on Mr. B's latest rendition would be very wellcome |
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Paul Barufaldi
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| All Mr. Moneygrubber deserves is your resignation letter and the stress of losing a good employee (if he even cares). |
and the students who paid all that money - where is your altruistic vision Mr. Barufaldi - not a mention of students, where does this leave your teaching ethics
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Right where I left them, I suppose. I did qualify that remark, you know. Of course, if they've adhered to the contract terms, it would be best to finish it out before moving on to that better job.
Incidentally, the students were mentioned several times in my last two postings, advocating that the teacher give them his best regardless of circumstances -well, other than a serious contract breach, but even then I think lowering your standards is a pretty crappy solution. Resignation in such an scenario would actually be more ethical. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| why should looking for a decent wage not be associated with good teaching... |
I don't think anyone is disassociating the two.
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| Remember mate for all your work ethic there is also something - just as airy fairy - we can term professional ethic - you know sticking as a group looking out for each other by showing a low tollerance to the antics of the FT exploiter. |
Well yes, I agree. But you and I both know that no matter what you do, no matter where you go, there will always be a certain amount of FT exploiting, and there's nothing you or I can do about that. There's no point in calling 'Foreign teachers of the world unite!', because they won't.
In addition, professional ethics have to take into account certain realities. Professional teachers who decide that they won't take a cent from any high school offering them less than RMB 20,000 a month together with 8 weeks paid annual leave, 6 weeks paid sick leave, superannuation and health cover because that's what they were getting back home and it would be disloyal to the profession and to their colleagues to drop their standards in China, are going to get a rude awakening, are they not?
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But hang on a sec, I just read....
| Quote: |
| The students deserve more for what they're paying, so why not be the one to give it to them? |
shizzzer Im not just supposed to be a clarion of moral virtue, but now my performance is directly correlated to those market forces that have created those fee levels. What a strange thought , which leads towards a principle of the more the more the employer charges the better we should teach - regardless of how much we are paid |
Firstly, I have never suggested that people be a 'clarion of moral virtue'. Your repeated sarcasm and ridicule of what I say does not improve the tone of this discussion.
Secondly, I see no indciation that your performance 'is directly correlated to those market forces that have created those fee levels', and I am not suggesting any such thing. I am suggesting that it is ethical to provide the best level of service which one can, especially where students are at the mercy of being exploited by a school.
[quote]And poor ol' me always thinking that the better I became at my trade, the more I would be paid, which in turn raised my professional motivation levels, made we want protect my possition through good teaching performace, that had that spin-off effect of creating a good learning environment. But obvisously I was wrong [/qoute]
I'm sure you know more than to take that paragraph seriously. Sure, in the West it goes that way (mostly), but it doesn't necessarily go that way in the East, and you would know that. There's nothing wrong with being motivated to improve by one's salary and benefits, but it doesn't always happen, not even in the West. You would be fooling yourself to depend on such a way of thinking.
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| by the way ever think why there are so many apathetic local teachers who just go through the motions - could that be partly related to them looking at the future through a mental filter called appalling wages??????? |
If they think the wages are so appalling, surely they can get off their backsides and find themselves something more interesting and profitable to do. But people like these are brute beasts, and they will underperform anywhere you put them.
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| Try telling them to put on a better show cause the kids have payed up - or is that kind of talk just for us god fearing whities |
I'm not suggesting indoctrinating the locals with my personal ethic. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| All Mr. Moneygrubber deserves is your resignation letter and the stress of losing a good employee (if he even cares). |
and the students who paid all that money - where is your altruistic vision Mr. Barufaldi - not a mention of students, where does this leave your teaching ethics
Fortigurn one of your excellent short critiques on Mr. B's latest rendition would be very wellcome |
Very well, here it is - this is an issue on which people must determine their own course of action according to their own ethic. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| I wasn't talking about altruism not being everybodies cup of tea - I was refering to something that had its roots planted in that fertile mulch called moral dogmatism - you know that promise of greater reward in the hereafter if you follow the rules of piously buckling down and spreading the message. |
I don't believe in the common Christian 'hereafter' for 'following the rules of piously buckling down and spreading the message'. Nor have I mentioned 'spreading the message' once in this entire conversation. Instead of throwing mud with base insinuations, please adhere to the topic if you wish to continue the discussion.
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| Personally I prefer a decent monthly pay check to follow me about after I do my good deeds - but then again you take your roasting right now while I'm just putting mine off |
You can look at my point of view as delayed gratification if you wish, but personally I get a lot right now out of working hard, and I get a lot which is worth more than money. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| well youve certainly been spreading your rather robust moral messages here - which of course your quite welcome to do - but don't expect they'll go without some rather robust professional replies (well from little me at least ) - after all many of the people who inhabit these forums are teachers, who use this profession for economic as well as spiritual gratification |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| well youve certainly been spreading your rather robust moral messages here - which of course your quite welcome to do - but don't expect they'll go without some rather robust professional replies (well from little me at least ) - after all many of the people who inhabit these forums are teachers, who use this profession for economic as well as spiritual gratification |
All I have been doing is pointing out an alternative to complaining about the school you work for getting more money than yourself, and insisting on your cut. I have also expressed the idea that this is a more ethical approach than loudly denouncing one's school as unethical, whilst expressing the desire to benefit more from their unethical practices.
After 6 years of work in two private schools, I'm well aware of which professional opinions to respect. There are professional teachers who do not merely work for money, and who believe in ethical behaviour, who are not even Christians. This may come as a surprise to you. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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What exactly do students "deserve" - if a teacher gets paid "what he or she deserves" (!), what do you folks believe the students expect from you for their parents' money?
The students seldom expect you to deliver! They want to be left to themselves! OK, entertainment is always welcome to kill time - but it's not what advances their marketable knowledge levels and skills.
I have yet to meet a public school student who pays for his or her schooling! They all feel coerced, and that's what they are (and we were too when we were students, only in the case of Chinese students it's much, much worse because they have twice or thrice as many lessons as we had!).
Honestly, a Chinese student couldn't care less for his or her English level or for the techer's professionalism!
If you want to move the goalposts, then begin somewhere else: it's not our wages that will automatically improve the performance of the students but it's their future that holds the key: if you, say, raise the entry salary for secretaries who speak and write not just in Chinese but in adequate English (approved by, say, the BC), then I am sure students would make an all-out effort to surpass their current mediocre achievements. Give a Chinewse teacher a salary of 2000, and a Chinese English techer 5000, and you will attract good Chinese English teachers who won't abscond in search of better-paying jobs in private, probably foreign-owned, businesses.
Really, folks, we are the proof: why don't we all become as good at Chinese as our Chinese colleagues are? Because there is no pecuniary incentive!
Raise the pecuniary incentive for Chinese to learn English - and the schools will produce them! |
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Midlothian Mapleheart
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 623
Location: Elsewhere
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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post deleted
Last edited by Midlothian Mapleheart on Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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prof
Joined: 25 Jun 2004
Posts: 741
Location: Boston/China
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Midlothian Mapleheart wrote: |
In my opinion, your wages and relationship with your employers should have no impact on how you teach your students. They are two totally different groups with totally different interests. The wage you agree to accept puts you in the classroom. Once there, your responsibility is to your students alone; to give them the best you can. If you become disillusioned with your salary, or any other aspect of your job, you can choose not to re-sign, or you can negotiate a way out of the job. But to say, "I'm getting paid squat, so why should I do a good job?" is not an approach a teacher should take. If you work in a factory, you can slow down. Teachers just don't have that option.
Middy |
You are underestimating most Chinese employers due to your lack of experience and knowledge.
They know the classes that must be filled. They know the tuition fees. They know what the students/parents demand.
So they hire appropriately.
And if you threaten to quit...then if you are truly valuable they will negotiate with you and give you what you want.
If you aren't that valuable they'll replace you in a day or two.
No matter how valuable you imagine yourself to be. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| If they think the wages are so appalling, surely they can get off their backsides and find themselves something more interesting and profitable to do. But people like these are brute beasts, and they will underperform anywhere you put them. |
poor apathetic local teachers described as brute beasts - Fortigurn are you thinking that the perfomance of the average Chinese teacher is shaped by wharped character rather than the sub-standard conditions and pay and resultant low moral found in many education establishments - as an inhabitant of Taiwan you must be rather an expert on the situation of Education on the chinese mainland
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| There are professional teachers who do not merely work for money, and who believe in ethical behaviour, who are not even Christians. This may come as a surprise to you. |
Not really i actualy worked 8 years full- time for the red cross at various refugee centers - and boy ohhh boy did we get our belly-full of ethical jokers of a rather spiritual nature poping in and out. Strangely enough many of them didn't stick around too long - then again life in a refugee center is the most practical of businesses, so not too hard to understand
Middy that relationship with employers - well during this finding a job phase,isn't it that initial relationship with the potential employer, through interview, questioning, bargaining and seeing the set up, that makes the sensible professional want to use her skills in a perticular school - man, this relationship with employer is the catalyst to everything - or do you go and meet every single potential student before you start to make sure they're worth your precious teaching skills - no I think that teacher/student impact comes a little latter on???? Yeps Middy ol' chap i think my point is that you shouldn't accept those krap poorl paid jobs in the first place, 'cause if resultant dissapointment causes you to fall into the pit dissalusionment then with all the good (and moral) intentions in the world, for most of us ordinary earthlings, our work performance starts to tail off. And I personally beleive a red warning light in the area of krap jobs is so often a krap sallary.
And as a last laugh, fortigurn wrote....
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| Well yes, I agree. But you and I both know that no matter what you do, no matter where you go, there will always be a certain amount of FT exploiting, and there's nothing you or I can do about that. |
well jousting with you and your "stick it out on a moral grounds stance" is my small infinitesimal pinprick in the battle!!! What are you trying to say in your posts - live with it because it will make you into a better person |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| poor apathetic local teachers described as brute beasts - Fortigurn are you thinking that the perfomance of the average Chinese teacher is shaped by wharped character rather than the sub-standard conditions and pay and resultant low moral found in many education establishments... |
No, I was simply commenting on your assessment of the local Chinese teachers (whom you are now suddenly deciding to defend rather than denigrate).
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| ...as an inhabitant of Taiwan you must be rather an expert on the situation of Education on the chinese mainland |
I don't claim to be anything of the kind. I was simply commenting on your assessment of the local teachers in China. Those teachers who fit your description certainly fit mine.
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| Not really i actualy worked 8 years full- time for the red cross at various refugee centers... |
In that case, I'm surprised you don't place a higher value on altruism.
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| well jousting with you and your "stick it out on a moral grounds stance" is my small infinitesimal pinprick in the battle!!! |
No, it's your way of amusing yourself by bullying and abusing other people online for your personal satisfaction.
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| What are you trying to say in your posts - live with it because it will make you into a better person |
No that is not what I am trying to say. If you want to know what I am trying to say, please read my posts. |
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