Job Discussion Forums

[Crippler]

[vikdk]

[adamsmith]

[quote="vikdk"][quote]employees salaries (anywhere, not only in ESL) have never been tied to how much profit a company makes. that might have some bearing on additional perks or benefits, but not base salary. if companies were all to pay salaries based on their yearly earnings/profits everyone working for my bank in canada would be a millionaire right now. salaries are based on:[/quote]
Workers in the oil industry - even those ashore in non-skilled positions, working in countries where there are no specific dangers - don't seem to be working on national wage minimums.
Many factors obviously go into deciding wage rates - but the profitability of the industry you work in and the demand for you labour, are two factors that should never be ignored

hey CJ send some of the moonshine stuff this way mate [/quote]

Hey, Vikdk,

the oil industry work is very dangerous - even in a safe country. The pay is high, yes, but so is the danger, the isolation becaus of the job location, and also the workers are required to have lots of different certifications. You would be suprised at the courses a worker must attend before being employable. Plus many of the workers have uni degrees as well.
Having spent some time in the industry in Canada I am fairly familiar with the work.
Also the work is very physically demanding - very difficult to compare with teaching english. It is the same as comparing apples and oranges.

[No Moss]

CJ and Crippler! The old No Moss is a Tennessee boy born and bred, born a few miles from Lynchburg, Tennessee (home of Black Jack), and yes CJ, Moore County is indeed a dry county. Family legend even has it that my great-great aunt Sara once dated the venerable Jack Daniel himself, but Jack was short (just over 5 feet) and spoke with a lisp, and fancied himself a bit of a womanizer, so she turned up her nose at him and eventually married a dentist.

Jack never married and the distillery passed on to his nephew, Lem Motlow, upon his death. Love to take a sip now and then myself, so thanks for makin' it so good, Jack! BTW, Jack's real name was Jasper, and he never made Black Label, only Green Label. Black Label was introduced by Lem Motlow.

I go back to work tomorrow.

[cj750]

Hom's

always good to see the south represent...and Jack is the finest callin card a southern gent could ask for...

[vikdk]

oranges and apples - sure we're only talking about 250 RMB - try getting an oil worker, in canada, to work on that!!!

[Voldermort]

It sound's easy, everybody band together and demand decent salaries, but it will never ever happen. Daves cafe alone probably only touches into about 10% of expats in China. I would guess that a good 80% of expats would need to be in on this.

It's also not very fair to say that schools CAN afford it. Universities, Mills and maybe even Senior schools probably could, but the remainder would certainly struggle. Just last year, government funding to Middle schools and lower was stopped. I know of several schools who now have no FT simply because they can no longer pay the 4,000k they were paying previously.

Is it also fair for a primary teacher to be earning as much as a university teacher? I think not. I teach senior school and my work is very demanding, I have to compete with teachers and parents aswell as the students who are now at that age when they know what a teacher should be teaching. My previous experience of teaching primary students was a walk in the park compared to now.

Also what about experience? Having played the game for 3 years now, I have learnt what makes a good teacher. And it is not just go to class and makes your students smile. You really must teach them something. There are topics which are interesting to us, topics which we learnt ourselves, but wouldn't cause a chinese student to bat an eyelid. FT's come here with degrees and TESOL cert's, but in my opinion they are worthless. To really be a good teacher in China you need to be one with your students ( didn't Jacky Chan say that? ), which comes from experience.

I have to agree that something should be done, the 4,500 k base salary that all schools are offering these days is just an insult. All this hype about chinese teachers earning less is pure rubbish. After you take into account the bonuses and cheap apartments ( to buy not rent ), holidays and overtime, do you really think they are so poor?

The only way to make a difference to our salaries is for China to become more stringent when recruiting FT's. We have to stop the holiday makers, backpackers, drunks, runners, complainers and missfits from getting their foot in the door. Likewise, the bad schools, corrupt officials and penny pinchers should be stopped. I am personaly sick to the hind teeth of China's excuses for it's problems ( "But China is poor...", "But China has too many people..." ).

[NathanRahl]

But um Voldemort, aren't you one of the complainers you want to stop from getting their foot in the door just by posting this post?

[johnchina]

I'm kinda stating the obvious here, but no-one seems to have pointed out (directly) that if you think you are worth 250 an hour, you need to convince the bosses that you are worth that much. Persuade the top guy that he should give you a little extra cash rather than buying a fancy house or car. Convince him that investing a bit of cash in you will hep him in the long term. Most bosses are too short-sighted to appreciate this. Fine. Find someone with a bit more vision.

I DO make 250 an hour and anyone who offers me less than that is (politely) reminded of my qualifications and experience. (A good salary is not a 'right', it is something you earn - through being a combination of qualified, experienced and a good teacher.) If they persist in offering less than 250, the conversation comes to an abrupt, but polite, end. Most of the time, they call back within an hour accepting my terms.

I work in Beijing and fully appreciate that schools outside large cities may not be able to pay so well. However, the basic principle about getting better pay still holds true.

[cj750]

the question would be, John, is your jobs private tutoring or an hourly based instruction in class..are there contract signed..and is their a basic amount of hours per week..say 20-25..and are these for sure...
is this 250 paid along side other benifits..such as visa help..there are a lot of factors to be considered...

[johnchina]

Very true, cj. Things like visas can be quantified monetarily, but it's hard to put a figure on something like job security. (Luckily, I now have both.)What I should have made clearer is that none of us can expect to just walk into a well-paid job. It's something you build up to over time by demonstrating your value to an employer.

[cj750]

totally agree...when I started in China I took a government job for 3200RMB per month..now I only work for a set amount of money..no bennies..I self finance my own trips and vacations..I find I get far more out of cash rather than contractual obligations...as to job security..I work for myself pretty much ..so I am my own security..and this was acheived by climbing a ladder of positions til' I got to a place that I was happy with the pay and the obligations...hours and such...and reliance on myself...

[Steppenwolf]

The teaching jobs that pay western-level salaries come with much stricter requirements; Utahloy, American School of Guangzhou, British School of Guangzhou,,,, and several other privately-operated schools that cater to expats or to very wealthy locals whose kids will eventually study abroad, hire certified expat teachers that can instruct subjects other than English. Pay can be as high as that for NETs in Hong Kong (over 50'000 a month, taxfree, with free accommodation to top it off).
When I talk to teachers from such schools they complain their employer works them to their bones too - 30 hours a week is minimum, and teacher meetings are regular. Those who work at international schools have to follow very well-defined curricula. You make a satisfactory income but you get less job satisfaction; this is evident especially among those who teach at Chinese-run private colleges or K12 schools where the local management style conflicts with international norms (meeting IB or IELTS requirements, for example). It is stressful teaching Chinese students preparatory to their enrolling at western universities. COrners are cut and marks are tampered with; in one case that I am privy to (to the extent of a Brit informing me) I learnt that the IB in place now for five years wrote a damning report on the school's implementation of IB guidelines and rules after a scheduled inspection by IB. Incidentally, several long-term FTs are seriously considering quitting.

[cj750]

[Steppenwolf]

[quote="cj750"]