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MikeySaid
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 509
Location: Torreon, Mexico
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 Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| wildnfree wrote: |
| I let them debate it, then give them the facts in black and white (ie 10-12percent of every population is born gay). It can be very eye- opening and informative for them. |
Do you find students in Mexico to be accepting of those numbers and that it's an orientation and not a preference? There still seems to be a lot of people in the US and even out here on the Left Coast that would argue that point with you 'til they're blue in the face.
I think I would have a hard time not integrating my beliefs (to some extent) into a classroom, because activities of my choice would tend to reflect my personality. I'm torn, what to do? |
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PlayadelSoul
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Playa del Carmen
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| wildnfree wrote: |
I work in a High School. If my students were teasing / harassing a classmate based on their perceived or actual differences, I would see it as my job to stop it. That is what I meant by "It's your job to promotve diversity" . I ask the student to stop the offensive behaviour immediately, but see the student outside of class where I would explain the concept of acceptance. Obviously the effectiveness would vary according to school/student ect, but at least I would have felt I had done the right thing, as opposed to just remaining silent.
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That is a matter of classroom management which is fine, IMHO. However, if a student expressed an opinion that Michael Jackson was a boy loving N(word), I would comment to him, as I stated earlier, would not challenge his opinion. It is afterall, his opinion. Its not my job to change opinions. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| I ask the student to stop the offensive behaviour immediately, but see the student outside of class where I would explain the concept of acceptance. |
Totally reasonable...a class management issue as noted before.
Let me toss a hypothetical at you. What would you do if a student cites his or her family, community, or religious beliefs in expressing an anti-homosexual view in a class discussion...one that isn't directed at another student, but at homosexuality in general? Or if in a planned discussion on the topic, most or all of the students express such a view?
This came up for me in a small English class of 5 students with a discussion of Great Leaders and their characteristics. 3 out 5 chose Hitler. It was my first experience with a class where my own education and fairly universal Canadian instincts kicked in to say 'WTF?'. |
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wildnfree
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: |
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What would you do if a student cites his or her family, community, or religious beliefs in expressing an anti-homosexual view in a class discussion...one that isn't directed at another student, but at homosexuality in general? Or if in a planned discussion on the topic, most or all of the students express such a view?
This came up for me in a small English class of 5 students with a discussion of Great Leaders and their characteristics. 3 out 5 chose Hitler. It was my first experience with a class where my own education and fairly universal Canadian instincts kicked in to say 'WTF?'. |
In fact I remember when I was teaching in Asia I encountered a similar situation where students were expressing hateful views and/or admiration for someone who had committed great evil. Rather than be deeply offended, which would have been a reflex reaction, I would do the following:
If the students said they admired Hitler, it would mean to me that they obviously know very little of Hitler and /or have been given very one-sided information. I would plan one of my future classes to talk about the
2nd world war and give a presentation on it, showing clips of some of the atrocities ect. For homework they would have to prepare a presention to be given next class on "What I would do if my family was living in Hitler's Germany". Later on I would ask if they still admired the same leaders they chosen earlier.
For the gay hate comments, again when I encountered them I didnt deal with them immediately. I just planned a future lesson on a broad topic that could in part deal with their beliefs (ie "Religion and Religious Prosecution"). I would devote a part of the lesson to talking about how gays are discriminated in some religions and discrepancies in the bible.
It wasnt about stopping them believing what they believed, but it was about providing alternatives and facts and forcing them to deal with the topic more personally. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| (ie "Religion and Religious Prosecution") |
Persecution. Sorry, I'm feeling nit-picky today. 
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| If the students said they admired Hitler, it would mean to me that they obviously know very little of Hitler and /or have been given very one-sided information. |
This is precisely where I almost went the wrong route, and where the Mexicans taught me something about making possible cultural assumptions.
None of the students admired Hitler at all. I hadn't asked them to select a leader they admired, they told me. I'd asked them to select and describe a great leader. The students, all university students taking an external English class with me, were fully aware of history and the atrocities committed by the man. However, each of the three explained more or less equally that simply as a leader of a country, there was no denying his abilities and successes at the time, from at least a Nazi German's point of view.
As a Canadian, every fibre of my being shivers to entertain the idea or listen to anyone try to defend Hitler. But, the students had a good point, and the error was mine. The error was in using the word Great and not fully explaining what 'great' meant in this context.
This is the essence of what I think I've been trying to say in this thread. The difficulty in separating our own beliefs from the class material, or in our abilities to accurately judge what a student's opinion is and that while it might not fit into the lesson I'd planned, it just might fit nonetheless, from a cultural or linguistic twist I missed.
On gay hate comments, there's room for the same type of error. In my hypothetical example, I asked what if a student expresses anti-homosexual opinions. Does that necessarily mean 'hate'? Or has an assumption been made?
As Mikey Said,
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| I'm torn, what to do? |
Tread carefully is all I can think of. |
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gordogringo
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 159
Location: Tijuana
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| I see thier point,Guy.Yes a bad,evil guy but he did keep his peoples support up to the end.And his speaking style is still copied today by many world leaders.Did several papers on the guy in college.Crazy,evil,but a master at manipulating public opinion and reinforcing organizational structure.Hope they cited in thier papers this kind of info. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| wildnfree wrote: |
| There is huge ignorance about what being 'gay' is all about. People have various notions of what being 'gay' looks like. As gay people, we are told by society to hide ourselves away. People do that for years,even lifetimes. So to actually be pro-active and tell people you are gay, it is a huge step in self-acceptance and self-esteem. |
�
Yeah but I still think gays are their own worst enemies. They make such a huge song and dance about it that they miss the point. Just be yourself, be gay, be straight, be whatever... just stop whining about it. People would accept it, even Mexicans.
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| I tend to make friends with people of all social backgrounds, colours, creeds and religions. Some have been very anti-gay while not understanding much about it. Their hate and ignorance would have stopped them from befriending prior to knowing. When they do know, it's like: "well hey, you guys (sic) aren't so bad after all!". |
Exactly, just be yourself instead of laying down the gay gauntlet by saying, 'I am gay, I challenge thee to be my friend!'
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| Straight people do tell people they are straight everyday of their lives. They hold hands on the street, kiss on the TV, sing love songs to each other on MTV, have marriage ceremonies, joint accounts, hug each other on billboards ect ect. That is straight people showing their sexuality. When was the last time you saw gay people do those things? And you want to criticize us for simply verbally stating our sexuality? Well maybe when I can have my gay wedding pics posted on the cover of !HOLA! and see gay couples kissing opening around the world I won't need to say those words "I am gay" either! |
You have to remember that being openly gay is a relatively new thing, of course much of the media is still based on the straight life but gays are all over it too (in most first world countries). You have to give Mexico time to catch up, perhaps a few centuries.
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| For the teachers who don't stop students making racist/hateful remarks, you are doing the world a huge disservice. It is your JOB to promote acceptance of diversity in the classroom. I do not mean pushing your personal agenda. |
I couldn't agree more. I find what it comes down to in Mexico is encouraging people to be less judgemental. To be honest though, what worries me more are jokey comments about wife-beating. |
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AjarnErnes
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 71
Location: Mexico City, Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: most of the worlds problems |
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Keep in mind that most of the problems in the world have been caused by straight people.
ajarnernest |
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
The liberal in me lives in a Coke commercial where everyone is holding hands on a mountain top singing.
But, pushing that vision onto people in a foreign land is not in the job description. |
What about in an ESOL context? I used to teach in a UK Further Education college (post 16, non-compulsory) where part of the remit was not to allow derogatory and discriminatory language - whether based on race, sexuality etc.
As it happens the gay issue never came up in my UK classes except in passing: once when doing a reading referring to girl going out with boy I casually and neutrally in passing said 'or boy going out with boy or girl with girl'. This wasn't to make a big issue of it, but just to show other situations and that I didn't consider them unacceptable. Cue to one of my M.E. students to start a brief rant against gays which at least had the benefit of being in English, and was laughed at by the rest of my students.
For what it's worth I'm lesbian although it's always been a non-issue, and at the moment I'd probably be better defined as a 'practising assexual'! |
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Ben Round de Bloc
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1946
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: most of the worlds problems |
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| AjarnErnes wrote: |
| Keep in mind that most of the problems in the world have been caused by straight people. |
Keep in mind that most of the problems in the world have been caused by men, yet you are attracted to them.  |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: most of the worlds problems |
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| AjarnErnes wrote: |
Keep in mind that most of the problems in the world have been caused by straight people.
ajarnernest |
What an absurd comment. As if their sexuality caused the problems. Isn't that what gay people are trying to avoid? That their sexuality doesn't cause problems? As I said, if you're gay just get on with it. Stop making a song and dance about it and please don't be hyprocritical. |
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ls650
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 3484
Location: British Columbia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| This came up for me in a small English class of 5 students with a discussion of Great Leaders and their characteristics. 3 out 5 chose Hitler. |
That sounds to me more like a misunderstanding of the English definition of 'great'. In English 'great' often means good, whereas I suspect in Spanish 'gran' simply means powerful . I don't think most people will deny that Hitler was a powerful leader - but for evil, not good. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, that was the mistake I'd made, in failing to consider it at the outset and nearly jumping to a wholly different conclusion.
An ESL (ESOL) environment is now very different from teaching in a homogeneous foreign classroom. You're teaching on home turf where I would expect to present content in a much more British light. |
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PlayadelSoul
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Playa del Carmen
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: most of the worlds problems |
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| AjarnErnes wrote: |
Keep in mind that most of the problems in the world have been caused by straight people.
ajarnernest |
No kidding, Sherlock. That might be because the majority of people in the world are straight. |
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saraswati
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 200
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="TheLongWayHomeYeah but I still think gays are their own worst enemies. They make such a huge song and dance about it that they miss the point. Just be yourself, be gay, be straight, be whatever... just stop whining about it. People would accept it, even Mexicans.[/quote]
It is HUGE to many gay people. Example...a close friend of mine in college came out his sophomore year. He is a Korean Catholic and comes from a family that expected him to have lots of babies. He faced being ostracized from most of his family but being honest and open was more important. As far as I'm concerned, he can "dance" all he likes.
By the way, he's a teacher and no, his sexuality is not a part of the curriculum. He has been asked but usually responds by asking the student to explain how his answer would be important.
There will come a time when sexuality, race and other such topics won't require "song and dance" but I think we're still generations away from that. |
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