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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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 Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: |
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The concept of a foreigner speaking bad Chinese and supporting the use of Chinglish (e.g. �today we are talking English") in the classroom is not indicative of professional education in my opinion. In fact this is really the perfect illustration of why I feel that foreigners should generally leave their Chinese at the door of the English language classroom. �Amusing� is probably the most apt description of the scenario that vikdk outlined above. Educational it is not.
Bad Chinese usage by the foreign teacher may just encourage bad English usage by the students. Why confuse the poor little guys any more than you have to? In almost all cases the foreign teacher is employed to teach English while the Chinese teachers are employed for their bilingualism. Why not do your job and let them do theirs? |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:47 am Post subject: |
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I think this is the gripe that some of us have - at least I do to some extent.You admit Vic that your Chinese is not up to scratch .
I didn't use Chinese in front of the kids because (although my Chinese is ever improving and quite comprehendable) as I was teaching kids that were still learning their L1. As mentioned by Clark and myself before I don't think there are many teachers that have a control of Chinese that would benefit these kids. Wouldn't your dodgy Chinese only cause problems for these poor kids that are trying to learn their own language . They are presented with foreigners with incorrect usage of tones and phonemes after they have been practising from their Chinese teachers who are regulating the Chinese language thet the kids are learning .
I don't think it matters if you have studied Chinese extensively I very much doubt you have the Chinese to help but only hinder . We all know that to obtain an accent of a native is pretty much impossible for a foreign adult and I'm sure that the tones(which are the most important part) are not to the standard.
The only Chiense I used with the kids was from my good assistant's native lips . |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: |
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In almost all cases the foreign teacher is employed to teach English while the Chinese teachers are employed for their bilingualism. Why not do your job and let them do theirs?
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many ads in Beijing call for bilingual foreigners...it would be up to the employer to decide what job requirements are and the qualification of the applicant..when in doubt ..ask the man who signs your checks... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't your dodgy Chinese only cause problems for these poor kids that are trying to learn their own language . They are presented with foreigners with incorrect usage of tones and phonemes after they have been practising from their Chinese teachers who are regulating the Chinese language thet the kids are learning |
That's precisely why I have been using assistants for over 3 years - but then my dodgy Chinese is good enough for the simple type of exercise I described before - the Children understand my Chinese and understand that they are eventually required to replace it with English. Also they quickly understand that are going through a verbal substitution drill - replacing "wo de" (my) with "ni de" (your) - (there, now I think I've got the pinyin correct - thank god I'm not a pinyin teacher) - they are not copying my language and correcting their own to mine (as in a rote method) - but are responding to my communication with another appropriate communication - this (however simple it may seem) is called conversation. The fear that they will be learning bad Chinese from my Chinese - well, I don't think my teaching method runs into big problems on this front - since I feel you are rather overestimating the effect of the FT's Chinese against all that other Chinese that is found in a Child's local environment, that langauge that realy does stimulate a Child's L1 development  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| many ads in Beijing call for bilingual foreigners...it would be up to the employer to decide what job requirements are and the qualification of the applicant..when in doubt ..ask the man who signs your checks... |
Agreed. It is up to the school to decide what teaching method they want used in the classroom, and if the students like the foreign teacher using Chinese and find it useful then of course the school will support that practice.
As I mentioned earlier, there are schools that do specifically employ Chinese speaking foreigners with the aim of using Chinese to teach English. I have worked in one of those schools and this is one of the reasons that I am against the practice. In comparing the fluency of the students in that school, with students that I have had in English �immersion� programs, I can honestly say that the English immersion program kids were much more fluent in the areas of speaking, reading, and writing. They were more creative in their usage of the English language, and they were more confident in their usage. There were exceptions of course, but overall the above was true in my case.
As to thinking that using the Chinese �wo de� would help the kids understand �my� in English well I beg to differ. �wo de� can be the equivalent of �my� or �mine� depending upon usage, and this is exactly why the practice of substituting Chinese knowledge into English does not help fluency and in fact can impede it. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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this is exactly why the practice of substituting Chinese knowledge into English does not help fluency and in fact can impede it.
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I agree with this with the exception of nouns....Chinese can be great for the quick identification of nouns used in an English class..I think it is like anything else..if you don't go overboard with Chinese in an English skill acquisition class..you will have no notable increase or decrease in learning abilities...but use it too much and you may find that the use of two languages in the classroom will complicate the learning process.. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Clark do you understand the term -
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| English �immersion� programs, |
since you obviously do, we can take it that your kids were placed in schools where all classes took place in English. Or was it the case that you imposed an english only classroom rule - so the hour the kids were in your classroom English was sole language of teacher/pupil communication? If so that was quite an immersion program you set up there!!!!! If your contact time was much longer - then congratulations - most of us dont have that type of contact time with our in and out of the classroom schedules - and thus make our classes as effective as possible by including an element of L1.
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| As to thinking that using the Chinese �wo de� would help the kids understand �my� in English well I beg to differ. �wo de� can be the equivalent of �my� or �mine� depending upon usage, and this is exactly why the practice of substituting Chinese knowledge into English does not help fluency and in fact can impede it. |
One of the reasons an assistant is used is to tackle explanation of these tricky gramatical problems in a very understanderble for the pupils L1 form, so the actual English can be more effectivly practiced by speaking it. Another similar problem - which causes small kids problems - is English has a single and a plural you - where as Chinese has ni and ni men - would love to see you explain that through body language in your english only class 
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| Amusing� is probably the most apt description of the scenario that vikdk outlined above. Educational it is not. |
well this just sounds like sour grapes to me - but anyways if you're not going to explain to us what education is and why my teaching doesn't meet up to its expectations - you can at least help me through my problems by telling me how you teach so I can follow your example - ya know give us a few of your classroom scenarios 
Im sure other posters like sheeba will be glad of this. especially after they also admit -
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| The only Chiense I used with the kids was from my good assistant's native lips |
to using Chinese in their English classes.
But whatever you decide to write its good to see that you've decided not to ignore me - so my ideas must be having an impact on you  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think that cj750 nailed it as far as limiting the usage of Chinese in the classroom if it is going to be used at all. Certainly under some circumstances one word said in Chinese can save a lot of time spent using English to try and convey the same point. I am of the mindset now that there are other ways to do this rather than using Chinese, but I certainly do not believe that this practice is always a bad thing.
Perhaps a good test is whether or not the students even notice when you run a class or two without Chinese. If they don't then they don't seem reliant upon it.
| vikdk wrote: |
Clark do you understand the term -
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| English �immersion� programs, |
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Yes I do know what a true immersion program is. I use the term here as it is used here in China to pertain to many English language schools. I am not going to debate whether the term is used correctly or not as it is a common place usage here and everyone who teaches here knows what is meant by it.
| vikdk wrote: |
| since you obviously do, we can take it that your kids were placed in schools where all classes took place in English. Or was it the case that you imposed an english only classroom rule - so the hour the kids were in your classroom English was sole language of teacher/pupil communication? If so that was quite an immersion program you set up there!!!!! |
First off I didn�t set anything up � I am an employee and I have always respected the wishes of my employers. When I don�t agree with what they are doing I resign and take my beliefs elsewhere.
Secondly I didn�t impose anything on anyone. The students and their parents knowingly signed up for both the �teach English through English� immersion program at one school and the �teach English through Chinese� program at another.
I have worked at a number of English immersion schools in my time in China, but generally speaking yes the time that the students spend with the foreign teacher is an �English only� time. They also spend time with a Chinese teacher of English during whose class Chinese is permitted if required. This is the program that the students at these schools signed up for, and as I have said above, having taught on both sides of the fence I found this type of program to be more effiective at promoting fluency in English which is what I see my role as being.
| vikdk wrote: |
| One of the reasons an assistant is used is to tackle explanation of these tricky gramatical problems in a very understanderble for the pupils L1 form, so the actual English can be more effectivly practiced by speaking it. |
You only have this �tricky grammatical problem� because you attempted to translate Chinese directly into English.
The idea that a foreign teacher would have a Chinese assistant translate a concept because the foreign teacher used Chinese which confused the situation just seems to me to be an awful lot more work than is necessary. In my opinion foreign teachers should only use Chinese in the classroom if they are at a level where they are competent enough to explain things in Chinese without the need of a translator. I mean what�s the point of you speaking Chinese at all if you need someone to translate the concept to the students. Seems that an awful lot of time must be spent using Chinese when you should really be concentrating on English.
This is not to mention the likely classroom control issues that would come from the foreign teacher effectively handing over the lead role to the Chinese teacher during the foreign teachers teaching time. By doing this the foreign teacher is effectively relegating himself to the role as special guests appearance while the Chinese assistant appears to be in control of the class. And for what?
| vikdk wrote: |
| Another similar problem - which causes small kids problems - is English has a single and a plural you - where as Chinese has ni and ni men - would love to see you explain that through body language in your english only class |
That�s the beauty of the English immersion programs. You don�t stand there explaining it, you use it. Perhaps this is why you have such an aversion to the practice of using English to teach English.
| vikdk wrote: |
| you can at least help me through my problems by telling me how you teach so I can follow your example - ya know give us a few of your classroom scenarios |
It�s not my job to be your teacher trainer. As a teacher who supposedly has an education major in the very age group that you are teaching I am surprised that you are even asking this question.
Look vikdk I really don�t care what you do in your classroom. You are the one who came into this discussion suggesting that your teaching practices were superior to others who don�t use Chinese. You have really failed however to show how this is the case. In fact I will go further than this. You have very clearly shown why the majority of foreign teachers should stick to teaching English in English. I am not sure that there is much more to say on the subject. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Clark - for me and others to learn from you, then could you please have to explain some of the technical aspects of your argument a little further. For example when you write-
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| Yes I do know what a true immersion program is. I use the term here as it is used here in China to pertain to many English language schools. I am not going to debate whether the term is used correctly or not as it is a common place usage here and everyone who teaches here knows what is meant by it. |
Well I'm one of those who don't use this system - and there are many people reading these forums who are not in china - we'd appreciate an explanation of what you mean by a "Chinese style" immersion program. After all, you are defending it so stoutly you must hold it in high regard - so why be so shy over sharing exactly what is entailed by this method, and how we to can set one up
The other stuff about obeying the wishes of your employers is very interesting - but doesn't have much to do with the discussion on the merits of using an L1 in an L2 class - but at least we can go to bed tonight knowing that Clark is loyal worker - which is a credit to you dear sir.
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| You only have this �tricky grammatical problem� because you attempted to translate Chinese directly into English. |
I'm afraid if a child's L1 is Chinese, and that child thinks in Chinese then you can't really escape from inevitable problems arising from mental translation. So why fight it, why not accept it - and use it as a path to gaining eventual automatic fluency. And if you're getting all hung up over my method being too close to the old grammar/translation method - then just realise there is a huge fundamental difference - my method is verbal and grammar/translation relies on text study!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| The idea that a foreign teacher would have a Chinese assistant translate a concept because the foreign teacher used Chinese which confused the situation just seems to me to be an awful lot more work than is necessary. |
So enlighten me on how the FT gets over these problems in your immersion programs � so far you tell us its through speaking English � but what English and how do they ensure the children understand it??????????????? Some practical tips please.
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| Seems that an awful lot of time must be spent using Chinese when you should really be concentrating on English. |
If explaining the English language, with regard to its use, is not concentrating on English - what is????????? But once again - so that I can save time - give me practical advice over how I get round these problems by using your style of immersion program???????????
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| That�s the beauty of the English immersion programs. You don�t stand there explaining it, you use it. Perhaps this is why you have such an aversion to the practice of using English to teach English. |
Well using it is fine if the kids understand what is being said - but what if they don't. I always thought the spoken word, on its own just as a sound, was a little abstract - maybe some body language and flashcards can give words a logical foundation by which their sound can be translated into a meaning - but sentences, and grammar nuances (especially those that don't follow any fixed rules) - it takes a child years of minute by minute practice, experimentation, guidance, encouragement to pick up its native tongue - are you telling me that during your hour long immersion sessions small kids pick up/understand/memorise English language concepts by just listening to language and looking at a few flash cards being combined with some body language (the wonders of TPR)????????????? I'm impressed - I always was always led to beleive that the process of picking up an L2 rather differed from that of picking up an L1 - but you seem confident that your immersion program can roll those years into hours - tell me your secret I want to learn how to do this. It takes me about 2 years (starting them off at 3/4 years of age) to be able to get them to a stage where they can start to build conversation in English - and reach the first stages of fluency.
By the way, my assistants don�t laboriously translate all my English into Chinese � so don�t get the idea that English is drowned out by Chinese � but when those problems do occur and to ensure that our children are given a chance to obtain real understanding � then we welcome the use of Chinese into our classrooms � and hope that by using it then it will be quickly replaced by a wave of English conversation.
But then again I don't suppose I deserve your special help -
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| It�s not my job to be your teacher trainer. As a teacher who supposedly has an education major in the very age group that you are teaching I am surprised that you are even asking this question. |
But remember there are others reading this forum - so if you're not going to spill the beans for me - then think of them |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I tend to agree about the term "immersion" program. If that term is being used here in China to describe a couple of hours a week with a FT who doesn't speak Chinese, then it is being used incorrectly. I feel it is misleading to parents to and students because it somehow implies that the kid, in a "immersion" environment will pick up English just like he would if he lived in the UK for a year or so.
In fact, just today I had to dissuade a prospective parent, who told me that she wanted to enroll her kid (nine years old) at our school because "with a native speaking teacher and the foreign language environment we figure he'll be fluent in a year or two."  Sure, I could have agreed with her, and told her we were going to immerse her kid in English and turn him into a boy wonder, but that would have been a lie. So instead, I told her that the kind of "environment" that she was talking about was virtually nonexistant in China, but that we were offering the next best thing outside of sending the kid abroad for a few years -- the opportunity to study English with a native speaker in a stress free, fun evironment that would foster a lifelong love of language. I don't promise miracles, I just tell my parents that if I can get the kids to like English, then I'm satisfied.
This is a different topic (although related), but the way "immersion" gets thrown around in China does bug me somewhat. It seems like a marketing gimmick to me, one that far too many FTs are willing to buy into because it ensures that even the most underqualified of teachers will always have jobs as long as they're native speakers and can provide the right "environment." Ever have (adult) students disappointed when they can't see their progress after a week or so of classes, get discouraged and ready to give up? I feel this attitude is a direct result of the whole myth that a native speaker is all you need to become fluent in English, a myth that we help perpetuate when we say that we provide "immersion." |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
Once again poor old vikdk is being crushed
- and all this for passing on an innocent little tip over the pratical use of Chinese in the English classroom.
I wonder why the English only freaks never fully explain why their methods must be better?
If Chinese is used is used to improve the quality of teaching/student understanding/making a lesson more memorable - then, if used properly and sensibly, what major disadvantages can it throw up apart from making the FT's need to be able to use Chinese in some form an extra requirement of teaching???
And my chinese - well nobodies Chinese could be worse than mine |
Poor vikdk, yes, agreed! Your labour of self-love is being underappreciated - did anyone ask youto give tips?
That maybe your biggest problem - your huge ego that constantlycraves being noticed. Youhijacked this thread away from its original intented topic and you are not being taken seriously now.
And how can anyone give you credits now after reading your rehashed theory about making new concepts "memorable" to young (unwilling?) learners of English? Do you know what "understanding" actually means and implies? I don['t think so! Like Chinese teachers, youassume it means when they can find the exact Chiense equivalent vocable they by necessity"understand". Delusional!
And thelast quote from your verbose post says enough: if YOU cannot converse with your little charges in THEIR lingo why push the bilingual method? It is YOU that's superfluous in the equation; a good Chinese English teacher could comfortably do your job and her own.
As one of those you called a "freak" Iwill at alater date enter a post on how effective monolingual teaching can be.
Unlike you, I don't believe inthemiraculous existence of a single cover-all-needs approach. The bilingual approach might be good for students with special needs though their foreign teacher clearly ought to be more linguistically gifted than youare. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Malsol wrote: |
THERE IS NO IMMERSION PROGRAM IN CHINA.
THERE IS NO ACQUISITION PROGRAM IN CHINA. |
Not quite true!
There are elite schools thqt promise parents their kids will undergo total immersion through attending classes using English as the medium of instruction.
This is an excellent point to show how deluded Chinese parents and educationalists are: if you are not intellectually endowed enough to broach a topic beyond your daily routines youare not going to improve your command of any target language excpet in the passive forms of reading and comprehension skills. (More of the latter would be quite profitable for Chinese English students!). But the creation of token "English-speaking" events and avenues such as "English Corners" and "English Salons" only fosters illusions because the participants there are still treated as consumers with the right to be entertained; no serious attempts at using English are normally made.
And that doesn't improve much in English-Medium (EM) classes as anyone familiar with the Hong Kong school scene knows.
Many - most? - students attend classes passively, never raising questions in English; their comprehension is limited to the subject at hand, which they master owing to Chinese reference books that help them. Their vocabularies are topically restricted as a result. What's far worse, their mind still relies on "understanding" things through Chinese by simultaneously translating most utterances their teachers make.
For any teacher - I spoke to science and maths teachers, - it is a frustrating experience that leads to lowering the exam criteria. Some may actually try to pass the BI or the British AA but it's just not possible for most without resorting to invest in private tuition and summer camps.
Who is to blame? The Chinese parents who think their money has more clout than the interest of their kids does! |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:32 am Post subject: |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:21 am Post subject: |
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Recently in the forums we have been getting a lot of debate concerning FT qualification - and this thread is a prime example why this subject is so important. And not because its so much to do with what we claim is going on in our classrooms, and our claimed teaching results - after all you can claim anything in these kinds of posts to prove your point and bolster your argument - but its the power of being able to professionally reflect on your practice - the skill of being able to argue in words what you are doing and why you are doing it - one of the prime skills of the qualified teacher. In the normal teaching world teachers would use this skill in those staff-meeting that were used to plan a schools academic policies and methods. Alas in China the quality, frequency and indeed influence of the kind of meetings an FT might normally attend are rather lacking to say the least - so maybe a reason why some of us try to prime our thoughts here at Dave's, an outlet for those who are truly interested in teaching. So readers, when posters start to abandon objective argument, that is composed and written on the foundation of pedagogical knowledge and experience, and become totally personal - for example accusing fellow posters of being a bad linguist, delusioned or an ego-freak - then maybe you could conclude that by using these arguments (after all the possibility of a poster being a bad linguist or a bad teacher has nothing to do with the subject at hand � and is indeed seems nothing more than a smoke�screen to try and hide the fact that the author doesn�t really have anything pertinent to say on a particular subject - not really the way to make your case for me being delusioned stick) could be an indicator of how some of us need to brush up a little more on that most valuable and teacher like of occupations - professional reflection.
And in the spirit of professional reflection - I would like to thank no-exit for the following -
| Quote: |
| "immersion" gets thrown around in China does bug me somewhat. It seems like a marketing gimmick to me, one that far too many FTs are willing to buy into because it ensures that even the most underqualified of teachers will always have jobs as long as they're native speakers and can provide the right "environment." |
I think this is very much on-topic, since those who try to use L1 in the class (to the advantage of both teacher and students with regard to English acquisition) often get this strange "immersion" teaching idea - just like here with no real explanation of its worth or how you achieve these kind of classes when faced with a large group on non-English speaking small children - thrown back in their faces by their employers. And remember the employers and recruiters love teaching systems like this, since it justifies the employment of the under-qualified (and indeed why they don�t have to go to the extra cost of employing good assistants) and of course simplifies recruitment no end. And it also lowers the risk of them coming in for a bit of �professional reflection ear-bashing� from the likes of me � yeah you can understand why they like their typical "Chinese style" immersion programs |
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