Job Discussion Forums

[sheeba]

[arioch36]

Sheeba,

Nicely put

[johnchina]

I totally disagree with the idea that teaching is a thankless job. I can't even name a job that is thankless, nor should any job be thankless. I know many teachers who agree with me, though they are obviously not on this forum. "Thanks" can come in many forms - it doesn't have to be a direct one.

"[T]here aren't too many jobs out there in which employers spend much time worrying whether their employees feel all warm and fuzzy inside."

All I can say is that you must have had some pretty rotten employers. Decent employers are concerned about the well-being of their employees. I suggest that those employees who get the decent employers who care about treating them well do so because they are worth it, leaving the worse employers with the worse employees!

I love getting a pat on the back, but I don't wake up every morning with the urgent need for a 'fix' of back-patting. Don't confuse the two. I know that if I do a good job, my employer will appreciate it and tell me. I also know that my employer will not hesitate to let me know how I can do things better, in an appropriate manner.

Apologies in advance to sheeba, but EVERY person I have EVER met who says "I couldn't give a flying about those around me and whether they pat me on the back" or similar has turned out to be lonely, moody, needy and lacking in interpersonal skills. The "I don't care what other people think" attitude reminds me of pouting, sulking kids, in a huff with their arms folded across their chests.

If you don't care what other people think, you will almost certainly not provide good service - and teaching is a service industry. That's a pretty good indicator that you are in the wrong profession and possibly of the wrong species, given that humans are social animals.

Money is important to me too - it's just that I know for a fact that my ability to earn money is inextricably linked to my ability to provide a high quality service. Economics 101, people!

[vikuk]

Have you guys ever thought along the concept - that in the modern society - where the social role of family and feeling of being has been so disempowered by the common 9 to 5 existence - that the modern workplace has taken on a very important role for many people - almost a family away from your family type situation.
In the western world a modern catchphrase is popular - that of social integration. And it�s often through your workplace, a time space that dominates the modem life that you feel integrated.
In China its so easy to feel out on a limb - and this isn't just to with simple validation for a job well done - but also some kind of acknowledgement that you are actually part of the team � that you actually exist away from that sphere of holding entertainment value because you�re different. Through this kind of thinking, I can easily see where some of the OP's frustrations may be stemming from.

[OGFT]

[johnchina]

OGFT - Why does it have to be an 'either "kudos" or cash' situation?

[sheeba]

[tatterdemalion]

johnchina, above -- I don't know whether you're speaking about ESL jobs in China, or about job experience in general, and I'm not sure where you hail from originally -- but I will say that "thankless" is a description of most jobs available in the US economy right now (which is why I am casting my sights abroad this year.) The salaried world exists on a form of mandatory unpaid overtime caused by the expectation that if one does not put in these extra hours, one will be dispensed with when layoffs hit, which they often do; the hourly world exists on mandatory undertime, usually, and awkward hours scheduled differently every week. And hiring decisions in jobs for large corporations have come to depend on badly designed personality tests rather than any gauge of actual job performance. For an in-depth look I'd suggest either of Barbara Ehrenreich's field studies, or "Stiffed" by Susan Faludi.

I speak partly from my own extreme dissatisfaction with American office culture, of course -- I feel a sort of relief to know I won't fit in, in Asia, no matter what I do.

[johnchina]

"Why wouldn't you provide a good service if you follow what you believe in[?]" Well, you might believe in it, but the people you are providing the service for (or the people you work for) might not.

Example: British banks believed they were providing a good service by moving their call centres to India. Their customers disagreed and now many banks are moving their call centres back to the UK.

But actually, your question doesn't relate directly to what I wrote anyway, so ...

As for my reference to humans as social animals, I'm suggesting that, if you don't care what other people think of you, you are unlikely to be a sociable person, or there is at least a good chance that you'll offend a lot of the people you meet. I mean, if you don't give a flying x about other people, what makes you think they'll give a flying x about you?

Yes, many students do demand service. Why does that surprise you? In my experience, people demand service even if they are not paying.

If the links between linguistics and biology are now seen as spurious, why do so many unis teach that there are links, as a quick search on the net reveals? I don't claim to be an expert in the field, but it seems to me that languages are born (they presumably begin at some time), do grow (develop - e.g. English takes in new words from other languages and slang is constantly developing) and do compete (ask the French!). Just my initial thoughts on a subject I'm not an expert on. My apologies if I've misunderstood.

As for your quote from "The Dao Speaks", I find it irrelevant. I may have missed something. I generally find philospohical/religious quotes open to interpretation and lacking in substance. Most people disagree.

"Don't let people think you are strong or intelligent"? It doesn't often seem a particularly good idea to me to let people think you are weak and stupid. When you go for a job interview, isn't it a good idea to appear intelligent? Confused. Sorry.

"Remember the importance of non-action". Does that mean that George W. Bush is a Daoist? He certainly appeared to be when informed of 9/11 whilst visiting a kindergarten.

No self? Er ... doesn't that kinda conflict with the idea of just doing what you want to do regardless of anyone else's thoughts on the subject?

[johnchina]

tatterdemalion - First off, I'm referring to jobs in general, though I don't really see a big difference between the ESL sector and most other sectors in the respects under discussion.

"Thankless" does not equate to the number of hours you work or to the salary you receive. I'm from the UK and have never been to the States. However, I do know many Americans and they almost always express their thanks for good service. I find it hard to believe that they would be thankless at home and then suddenly magically transformed into thankful when abroad.

I don't mind generalisations and often make them myself, but "The salaried world exists on a form of mandatory unpaid overtime caused by the expectation that if one does not put in these extra hours, one will be dispensed with when layoffs hit" seems to me to be incorrect. I doubt very much that many US managers make decisions about who to lay off purely on the basis of who puts in the most free overtime. I imagine that they will take into account a range of factors including the amount of free overtime put in.

I've worked with several US companies and none of them use personality tests - badly-designed or otherwise. My experience with companies that do use them is that they do not rely on them as a sole indicator of a person's suitability.

Apologies for adding two posts in a row - tatterdemalion's post was added whilst I was writing a resonse to sheeba's.

[vikuk]

[lostinasia]

To all the people who claim to be "forced" into some sort of "monkey cage" or "dancing monkey" way of life. To those who feel no sense of accomplishment, success, receive no "thanks" and the like ....

Why don't you go home and get a real job, whether as a professional teacher or otherwise ?

[7969]

[vikuk]

[Worldly]