Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

this thread's heading's excellent, although i must admit i haven't read the whole 9 yeards

here's my couple maos in...recently, i attended a graduation ceremony of students that supposedly finished their global assessment certificate program (in china)...out of the twelve students class all graduated and've apparently been admitted to western unis...i was one of their teachers in the program and only THREE out of those TWELVE students really graduated in my books...the school's officials presented the students those lovely certs and when i was asked to say a few words, i did not hesitate...well, i thanked those THREE STUDENTS naming'em one by one..a couple others that i did not name began crying
anyway, besides chinese students' expectations, there's a pressure for the schools' management to graduate all, inclusive those incapable ones...otherwise, jobs of some are on the line

the point is that we can be as strict as we are, it won't change a thing in this 5,000 years old country. they're used to their own ways and they seemingly always will be.

cheers and beers to chinese education that provides graduation certs to so many in this such a large country

[Brian Caulfield]

You have to look where they are coming from. I have taught everything here. They like me and overwork me. What goes on in primary school and middle school is that they are packed in so tight with 60 to over a hundred in a class that they must write with one hand behind their backs. The are taught to copy. That is how they learn Chinese. To learn to read and write Chinese they must write thousands and thousands of characters over and over again. What do you expect when they arrive in your class? They are going to copy each other.
I have had many graduating classes in schools here and they are either business majors or English majors. I always have in these class a person who is tremendously English impared. I get nothing from them. Now these non performing students have been pushed through the system. They have been there for four years and no one has asked them to leave. I feel sad because they have wasted their time. Maybe they are hearing impared I don't know. They shouldn't be there but that is the rub. So when I tell my students if they don't feel like coming I will still pass them as long as I know who they are , I do this because I think these non performing students need to reflect about their lives. Most of my students are studying because of their parents. Most wanted to do something else but were forced into the program to please their parents.
So they help each other. Is there anything wrong with that? Can you honestly say that in all your years of schooling you never looked over to get an answer on a test?
So failing them does what? That is all they have known.
We are only English teachers and despite what the Chinese are trying to make out of the subject , it is an art. The judging of art is subjective and no one can say one persons art is better than another. It is only a personal opinion.

[malu]

But aren't you just perpetuating the whole wretched system by passing them, Brian?

Perhaps my situation is an odd one here, but my students will graduate only if they pass externally moderated international exams - the IB Diploma. I can pass the failures all I like in internal assessment but they'll still fail the finals. I have non-performing students who haven't a prayer of ever passing the exams but who are in my class because this is the most expensive school in the area and the parents want the neighbours to see the colour of the uniform.

I feel sorry for those students in that position but passing them because I feel sorry for them would only make matters worse because their stoopid parents would seize on a pass mark - any pass mark - as justification for putting their kids through such crap.

There's no easy answer, I think we're all agreed on that one.

[Brian Caulfield]

Passing them for me means 60% where I have worked. The average in most places in China is around 83% So how does this affect you? They are the ones wasting the money. I did the same thing in South Korea. I don't have the problems others have in my classes because my classes are non threatening. I give them mid term test even though I don't need to. I want to let them know that I am a high marker. It works for me because they then try do do things in my class. We have fun . I look forward to teaching them and they come to my classes. Nobody makes anybody do anything. Anybody making you learn Chinese? You teach an art not a science so don't worry about it. No bridges are going to fall , no planes will fall out of the sky , no wrong legs will be amputated, no bombs will explode. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Your just another brick in the wall.

[TreKidation]

[malu]

[johnchina]

Nowadays, a lot of the people who "manage" engineers, air traffic controllers and doctors are not scientists. I wonder whether these "managers" ever overrule the "science-types" on cost grounds ... Nah! As for the bombs, a lot of cops, MI5 employees and soldiers aren't scientists either ...

Besides, Brian, if it (passing students who haven't made the grade) happens in English classes, why not in other subjects? I mean, you correctly point out that they copy in Chinese class, so they think they can copy in other classes ...

TreKidation and Malu - Well said!

[Brian Caulfield]

I matter, but I know that if someone can learn a language doesn't mean they have no value. What I am trying to say is that a school is a place where mistakes musts be tolerated. We learn through are mistakes. If my students didn't make mistakes then I wouldn't know what to teach them. Your right if you are teaching a science then accuracy must be stressed but I thought this forum was for English teachers. If you are working in an immersion program then it is another ballgame.

[DistantRelative]

Brian Caulfield Wrote:

[arioch36]

i can say that my students are quite happy when I fail a student that they and I know "deserves" to fail. They feel this validates working in my class, and I do give them work, and expect them to work, and expect them to progress. I treat them like adults. My Law students, very good workers. But one never showed up for class (jut one). The class leader had to ask me to pass him, as that is the social practice. But he and the other students were quite thrilled that i failed this student. And I have seen similar student responses in the past.

So my experince my heart and my mind tell me that if the students know the teacher would pass anyone no matter what, a level of discouragement would set in, and a feeling that "this isn't an important or worthwhile class"

But it is true in China, usually, each to their own, I doubt if many schools will fire a teacher for passing students

[johnchina]

Absolutely, arioch36. Passing all sudents regardless of their ability perpetuates the idea that we FTs are just a bunch of incompetent, unqualified losers.

[vikuk]

[jeffinflorida]

I did the final grades today...

I kept my word... Took off one or two letter grades off their final mark for missing classes.

And failed 4 or 5 for cheating or excessive absence.

I was a bit tougher on marking too. No free rides. Even for the nice bottomed fairer species.

Gave out alot of D's instead of F's but still kept to the paln.

[Anda]

I'll throw in a bit, in Sydney, Australia I did a TESOL 110 hour course and found out that the fail rate was about 3%. However if one goes for a job in Sydney where they want a TESOL certificate then one will find that a pass mark for TESOL is regarded as a fail. Where I teach only a third of the students will get a high enough pass to do a final two years of elementary teacher training in Nanjing to get a government job. The fail rate is about 14% at my college.


So just because someone gets passed doesn't mean a lot.

[ontheroadagain]

The only student that I had ever failed was a Ph. D which never came to class, resulting to his Ph. D being delayed by one school year... Actually I deleted his name from the class listing.
The Dean was impressed!