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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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That company should be ashamed to put up that ad. 140,000 is in the competitive range? A 40hr work week at 875 yen per hour? That works out to be just slightly over the minimum wage in Japan.
If I ever travelled to a job interview and someone threw that wage on the table I would probably punch them right in the face. |
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cornishmuppet
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 642
Location: Nagano, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| But you know they'll get dozens of applicants anyway.... |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
That company should be ashamed to put up that ad. 140,000 is in the competitive range? A 40hr work week at 875 yen per hour? That works out to be just slightly over the minimum wage in Japan.
If I ever travelled to a job interview and someone threw that wage on the table I would probably punch them right in the face. |
Some people take what they can get or are desperate or take that type of job with that wage until they can find something better. |
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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| ssjup81 wrote: |
| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
That company should be ashamed to put up that ad. 140,000 is in the competitive range? A 40hr work week at 875 yen per hour? That works out to be just slightly over the minimum wage in Japan.
If I ever travelled to a job interview and someone threw that wage on the table I would probably punch them right in the face. |
Some people take what they can get or are desperate or take that type of job with that wage until they can find something better. |
I would hope that someone who had the means to relocate halfway across the world and probably has a university degree would never find him or herself in a position to work for such a horrible salary. |
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ssjup81
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 664
Location: Adachi-ku, Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
| ssjup81 wrote: |
| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
That company should be ashamed to put up that ad. 140,000 is in the competitive range? A 40hr work week at 875 yen per hour? That works out to be just slightly over the minimum wage in Japan.
If I ever travelled to a job interview and someone threw that wage on the table I would probably punch them right in the face. |
Some people take what they can get or are desperate or take that type of job with that wage until they can find something better. |
I would hope that someone who had the means to relocate halfway across the world and probably has a university degree would never find him or herself in a position to work for such a horrible salary. |
Jobs are hard to come by right now. If you have bills that need paying or you have some other financial responsibility, I can see why a person would take the job, hence, one being desperate. Of course I couldn't see someone relocating for that type of a job, but I could see a person taking a low-wage job, degree or not, in one's home country if the circumstances are dire. I'd take a job like that (in my home country) if it came up and just keep looking while working to make some type of money. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I understand the argument that these exceptionally low wages undermine the market overall, but am not sure how this affects teachers specifically. Is it suggesting that this market is so flat talent/skill/even credential-wise that students cant tell the difference between one teacher to the next? Otherwise, why should this industry be different from others, or the economy overall? You have your basic, low-level McJobs - where you get 8 bucks an hour. Sometimes, people with much higher capabilities and ambitions take those jobs in the short term to pay the bills. They dont stay there. And when you want a good meal you dont go to McD`s. I dont see the problem. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| I understand the argument that these exceptionally low wages undermine the market overall, but am not sure how this affects teachers specifically. |
Easy. You are from Kenya, so you don't care whether you make 180,000 or 250,000 yen/month. They are both far better salaries than you can make back home, so you take the job and live cheaply (yet better than before) and send any excess home.
You are another teacher from the USA, who realizes that the going wage has been 250,000 for decades and who understands the meaning of inflation. Whether you can live cheaply or not is not the point. You see this as a slap in the face and try to negotiate for more than 180K, but the employer says, "Take it or leave it. There are 35 others in line behind you for the same job." So, you take your pride and no job with you out the door.
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| Is it suggesting that this market is so flat talent/skill/even credential-wise that students cant tell the difference between one teacher to the next? |
Students don't know what teachers get paid. Many students don't even know what credentials their teacher has. In eikaiwa, where students CHOOSE to take the classes, they often go only to socialize with each other or a foreigner, or to gawk at the foreigner (maybe chance a dating opportunity), or just to get out of the house. In university, many students just take the classes they can pass the easiest without regard for long-term improvement or usage of the language.
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| Otherwise, why should this industry be different from others, or the economy overall? |
Who says it is? Don't you think a cut to 180,000 is a slap in the face, even if no credentials have ever really been required? That's a 28% cut!
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| I dont see the problem. |
Obviously. Look, employers have only recently been getting called for this sort of shenanigans. They offer lower wages or count only the hours you are in the classroom, all because they want to save money. Hey, no problem in the business idea of saving money, but let's be above board about all this. To have you in the office for 35-40 hours a week, yet pay you for only PT wages, do you think that's fair? According to law, foreigners are supposed to be paid the same as a Japanese in the same job, but that is not happening. They are getting PT wages for FT work.
So, Johnny Wannabe comes in and doesn't care about quality teaching or wages or insurance, etc. He just wants the cultural experience for a year or two then goes home. He accepts the lousy conditions, but he leaves behind a legacy of...
*not doing a good job (in the eyes of staff, management, and students)
*accepting crummy pay and work conditions (so management figures the next schmuck will have to suck it up, too)
Result? Poor(er) quality teaching and work conditions that spiral into deeper depths. But Johnny Wannabe's replacement may not care, or he MAY INDEED care about getting a fair shake. Which are you? |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| So, you take your pride and no job with you out the door. |
Why? Do you not have bills to pay? Ive taken jobs that I was way over-qualified for because I needed to survive. They sucked. The money sucked. But, it was pride and necessity that made me take them. Or is it because you can always say: f- this, Im going (back to home country). Coz if you were in your hometown and that happened, you would develop a little more imaginative strategy. Like say, `accept` the low offer, do a massive job hunt, and say sayonara asap....?
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Students don't know what teachers get paid. Many students don't even know what credentials their teacher has. In eikaiwa, where students CHOOSE to take the classes, they often go only to socialize with each other or a foreigner, or to gawk at the foreigner (maybe chance a dating opportunity), or just to get out of the house. In university, many students just take the classes they can pass the easiest without regard for long-term improvement or usage of the language.
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And so, why exactly should I, as a school owner who understands what you claim, pay out 270000/month when 170000/month will do just as well...?
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Obviously. Look, employers have only recently been getting called for this sort of shenanigans. They offer lower wages or count only the hours you are in the classroom, all because they want to save money. Hey, no problem in the business idea of saving money, but let's be above board about all this. To have you in the office for 35-40 hours a week, yet pay you for only PT wages, do you think that's fair? According to law, foreigners are supposed to be paid the same as a Japanese in the same job, but that is not happening. They are getting PT wages for FT work.
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That is a separate issue. Perhaps related, perhaps not. Please stick with this topic
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So, Johnny Wannabe comes in and doesn't care about quality teaching or wages or insurance, etc. He just wants the cultural experience for a year or two then goes home. He accepts the lousy conditions, but he leaves behind a legacy of...
*not doing a good job (in the eyes of staff, management, and students)
*accepting crummy pay and work conditions (so management figures the next schmuck will have to suck it up, too)
Result? Poor(er) quality teaching and work conditions that spiral into deeper depths. But Johnny Wannabe's replacement may not care, or he MAY INDEED care about getting a fair shake. Which are you? |
O please. You make it sound as though the vast majority of candidates for ESL `teaching` positions are motivated with a burning desire to educate! This discussion has devolved abjectly if one has to point out that, actually, most people that want that job want it because its in JAPAN (banzai!)!
Has it ever occurred to anyone that its the just the nature of the market? So tell me, Glenski - if you have a problem with the wages going down further, what wage scale would be reasonable to you and why? I hear stories of obscene killings made by English conversation `teachers` back in the Roaring `80s. I trust you wouldve had no problem with those wages. So if its cool for Japanese clients to pay $50-$100 per hour private lesson for something that you, the provider, will quite likely have no skill, no background, no education - nothing, other than a birth certificate from an English-speaking country and perhaps a penchant for travelling - why cant it go in the other direction? Good for the goose....
And from what you described above, they hardly need a higher paid professional to fill those shoes.
And why, as in other markets, can there not evolve various levels of service. If the lower paying schools are only going to attract the (according to you) crappy JWs, then why cannot there exist alongside schools willing to pay to attract the higher calibre of `teacher`?
The BIG reason people want to do TESL in Japan is because its JAPAN. If the employers dont care enough to pay you more, and the clients cant tell and dont care either way, then maybe the job aint all that.
Anyone with a reasonable opinion would admit that the norm up to this point (say the past 30 years) has seen ESL `teachers` compensated quite well for what they do, to say the least.
Now with this said, I wish ESL `teachers` there all the best in securing higher - or what they feel are fairer - wages. Organize. Do what you can. But I think the point is that while some may consider themselves ESL `teachers`, in the grander scale, ESL teachers are immigrants - with no transferable or marketable skills, most with no life experience, no connections, no language skills... when you are back home take a look at your local immigrants that fit that description and see how much theyre pulling in. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| So, you take your pride and no job with you out the door. |
Why? Do you not have bills to pay? |
I understand that feeling, RStone. People who are not desperate or willing to live with low wages will take those jobs. In addition to changing the employers' state of mind, it is also important to change the situations surrounding them so that there aren't as many desperate people. Can't really offer any solutions to that right now. What would you suggest?
Writing off the top of my head here...
who are these desperate people? It's dangerous to ask such rhetorical questions, but here goes.
1. Eager beaver newbies who just want to be here to enjoy the culture, country, opposite sex, etc. (the backpacker types, if you will).
2. People who have just lost or quit their major jobs.
3. People from countries with a low standard of living.
4. People who want something to tide them over until they learn enough to move on to another type of job in Japan.
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| Ive taken jobs that I was way over-qualified for because I needed to survive. They sucked. The money sucked. But, it was pride and necessity that made me take them. |
Again, I understand that situation. Been there, done that (in my homeland). However, how many people "need to survive" for any of the above reasons I've cited? If they are outside Japan and hoping to move here, that is the group that has the least justification for keeping/forcing wages down on the rest of us. I hope you can agree with that much. For those who are already here and somewhat established yet in a "take anything to survive" situation, that's different, depending on circumstances.
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| And so, why exactly should I, as a school owner who understands what you claim, pay out 270000/month when 170000/month will do just as well...? |
Because it's not what a Japanese person would get with a similar FT job. PT, yes, but not FT.
One might say, "Hey, if you are only getting paid for the 29.5 hours or less, then you are in essence working a PT job, but there are usually far greater work responsibilities than being in the classroom itself for those hours, and people should get paid for it!
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| That is a separate issue. Perhaps related, perhaps not. Please stick with this topic |
I disagree. It is a highly related issue!
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| O please. You make it sound as though the vast majority of candidates for ESL `teaching` positions are motivated with a burning desire to educate! |
That may have been what you read into it, but it was certainly not my intention. I would actually say that most newbies are not motivated in that way.
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| This discussion has devolved abjectly if one has to point out that, actually, most people that want that job want it because its in JAPAN (banzai!)! |
There are those types.
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| Has it ever occurred to anyone that its the just the nature of the market? |
Not at all. There are too many little insidious things happening, and collectively they are creating a poorer and poorer situation. ALT dispatch agencies on the rise, for one. Employers recently not paying into shakai hoken, for another. The lower wages being offered for another. These are all recent things. If these are what can be labeled the "nature of the market", then ok, but I say that regardless, these things should stop. Don't you?
ALT dispatchers get away with murder, and MEXT looks the other way.
Hours and shakai hoken. The General Union is making only slow headway on that issue, but at least it is not dead.
Lower wages. Well, the continued influx of people willing to take them is something out of our hands, but that is why people try to warn others.
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| So tell me, Glenski - if you have a problem with the wages going down further, what wage scale would be reasonable to you and why? |
I'll have to get back to you on that, ok? For the moment, the only reply I can give may sound stale, but it's the only one available at the moment: the same pay as a Japanese person, including monthly wages and bonus.
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| I hear stories of obscene killings made by English conversation `teachers` back in the Roaring `80s. I trust you wouldve had no problem with those wages. So if its cool for Japanese clients to pay $50-$100 per hour private lesson for something that you, the provider, will quite likely have no skill, no background, no education - nothing, other than a birth certificate from an English-speaking country and perhaps a penchant for travelling |
Yes, that is the way things were, but the economic bubble popped, or hadn't you heard? You can't really compare then to now?
Yes, people then and now are coming here with no background or experience or motivation in teaching EFL. That has not changed. Many are still feeding off the old claims of streets paved with gold, sad to say. I see plenty every week on forums like the Cafe who ask how to get a job when they don't even have a degree, let alone experience working. Gimme a break! I still continue to dispense advice about visa regulations and what they might face in terms of competition, yet many complain like the country owes them something and that it should provide a loophole just because they want to come here.
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| - why cant it go in the other direction? Good for the goose.... |
The goose? Aside from the fact that truly unqualified types are in demand and still come here, you make it sound like offering lower wages is a justified form of economic revenge, as if to say "it should happen!" I don't get that.
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| And from what you described above, they hardly need a higher paid professional to fill those shoes. |
I see nothing wrong with actually trying to push for change for the better. It can be a chicken and egg sort of thing, depending on how you see it. Yes, eikaiwa students often / usually don't take their classes seriously and only want to socialize. But, on the flip side, if their instructors actually taught them something useful (and many do), I feel they would actually be more willing to come back and learn the language instead of just socialize. Why do they even need to take conversation classes in the first place when they have 6 years of JHS/HS classes!? The answer spills into another area of educational concern, which needs to be fixed, too. And, for the moment, that concern is one of the main reasons why conversation schools exist: a severe lack of oral language skill teaching in mainsteam schools.
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| And why, as in other markets, can there not evolve various levels of service |
We have such various levels. In some cases it is needed, but to pay people less than what they deserve according to the law is the issue here.
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| The BIG reason people want to do TESL in Japan is because its JAPAN. If the employers dont care enough to pay you more, and the clients cant tell and dont care either way, then maybe the job aint all that. |
But the fact is, up until recently, they have been paying enough. The decline in wages is the point here. Your statements above make it out differently.
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| Anyone with a reasonable opinion would admit that the norm up to this point (say the past 30 years) has seen ESL `teachers` compensated quite well for what they do, to say the least. |
Yes, but recently that has changed. That's what we're talking about, not what was going on 3 decades ago.
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| in the grander scale, ESL teachers are immigrants - with no transferable or marketable skills, most with no life experience, no connections, no language skills... when you are back home take a look at your local immigrants that fit that description and see how much theyre pulling in. |
Perhaps most ESL teachers come here and stay only a few years, then move on. I grant you that. But look at what the immigrants back home are getting in terms of benefits (like health insurance, even for the illegal aliens!). No, let's not go there, because it is not a fair comparison. Instead, let's just say that immigrant or no, if you are being paid to do a job that a local is doing, you should be getting equal pay, not some runaround shenanigan that twists rules and reshapes finances. |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I had a detailed quote by quote response, but I think it all boils down to this:
Of course, get as much as you (as eikaiwa employees) can get. As I said in the previous post, organize, get creative. Use all your leverage. My basic point though is that one should not be too surprised given the general logistics or nature of the industry: dependence upon transient, unskilled, untrained, unexperienced labour force whose only credentials are a BA and English (yes, depending on the market there are other intangibles, but those are a dime a dozen.. heck, those 'credentials' are a dime a dozen!).
As I am sure you are aware, in the history of Western labour relations, labour has needed to seriously organize to get adequate compensation. This requires, among other things, leverage. Now, in service-based economies, alot more positions are expendable. However, if you stick around long enough you get more familiar with the environment and you get more leverage that way, though the kernel of your JD could be taught very quickly and easily to almost anyone. Another way to protect job security or integrity within the service industry is to accumulate administrative knowledge and advance in responsibilities. But staying at the bottom rung of a marginal industry and expecting things to stay status quo seems unrealistic.
While you provided an answer to my previous question by stating that gaijin TESL teachers should make the same as J workers, my follow-up question is Do you think you require leverage and if so where does that leverage lie and how effective do you anticipate it to be? Is it strictly a legal point, that by law TESL teachers should make the same as J workers? If not, where is the leverage? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| While you provided an answer to my previous question by stating that gaijin TESL teachers should make the same as J workers, my follow-up question is Do you think you require leverage and if so where does that leverage lie and how effective do you anticipate it to be? Is it strictly a legal point, that by law TESL teachers should make the same as J workers? If not, where is the leverage? |
That's a very tough question.
There are eikaiwa "transients", university teachers PT and FT (contract and rare tenured), ALTs from JET and dispatchers, AETs, private HS teachers PT and FT (contract and tenured), etc. The General Union is doing what it can to provide quality service to all of them.
One problem is that so few people have joined the union, and when they experience problems only then do they run to them for help. And, with few people on board, there aren't many to stage protests, write letters, confront employers, etc. It has made some very positive changes for some aspects of teachers in Japan (as has the Nambu foreign workers union), but their power is limited.
They are the ones to exert leverage. A teacher can only do his best to negotiate a salary, but with the flooded market, an employer can easily just say "pass" and take the next person in line (which is why the big guys often recruit abroad, to avoid people who are in the know).
Yes, I believe it is strictly by law that teachers should get the same as a Japanese person. I can quote you the labor law itself. However, the government does not see TEFL as a serious enough industry to perform the necessary checks and balances, so it will be very hard to equalize things and get a "minimum standard salary" back up to where it used to be.
What's needed is to eliminate the dispatch agencies or at least eliminate their shoddy practices. Eliminate the way some eikaiwas operate, too. How? In the case of dispatch, the government needs to step in, not ignore flagrant illegal operations (most of them are illegal if you believe some people, who claim this based solely on lack of licenses). As for eikaiwa, that's much harder, and as one person who has been giving advice for over a decade, I cannot come up with a better personal solution for one person (me) than just making people aware of what they face in job hunting.
The problem with that latter point is that many see such advice as a "doom and gloom" announcement meant to discourage people from coming altogether. People also just want to hear what they want and ignore good advice until they are in trouble.
Your opinion of resolving things? |
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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
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Well, the problems seem fairly clear and up front -- transient unskilled workforce that generally stick around for a year or three and are looking for support money while they tour Japan. If they just wanted a `real` job they neednt travel around the globe to find it; obviously most are there because of extra-job attractions.
Not having a solid or unified union undercuts leverage further. It would be interesting to see if the visa sponsorship continues. As wages and conditions spiral downwards I would think that more will be doing the midnight run to better paying positions.
The equal pay as J sounds good, but that does not mean that wages need go up. So one gets paid for 40 hrs instead of just 29.5, and still gets 170000. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RollingStone wrote: |
| Well, the problems seem fairly clear and up front -- transient unskilled workforce that generally stick around for a year or three and are looking for support money while they tour Japan. |
What do you mean "tour Japan"? If they stick around, they usually stay in one city/job for a year or so, not tour like a backpacker who uproots whenever they like.
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| If they just wanted a `real` job they neednt travel around the globe to find it; obviously most are there because of extra-job attractions. |
What do you mean "real job"? That could be taken offensively by some who consider a job to be a thing where you show up for 30-40 hours a week, do a task, and get paid for it, even in an eikaiwa.
And, it is irrelevant to talk about whether transient teachers such as this "need" to travel the globe or not. They do. Period.
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| Not having a solid or unified union undercuts leverage further. It would be interesting to see if the visa sponsorship continues. |
What do you mean "continues"? Why wouldn't it, and why does that have anything to do with having a union or not?
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| As wages and conditions spiral downwards I would think that more will be doing the midnight run to better paying positions. |
Like where?
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| So one gets paid for 40 hrs instead of just 29.5, and still gets 170000. |
40 hours doing what, exactly? |
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timothypfox
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Well, the problems seem fairly clear and up front -- transient unskilled workforce that generally stick around for a year or three and are looking for support money while they tour Japan. If they just wanted a `real` job they neednt travel around the globe to find it; obviously most are there because of extra-job attractions.
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Actually, I would like to take issue with you on these assumptions. I left Canada in 1997 with 2 undergraduate degrees in liberal arts, few job prospects, and student loans to pay. On a whim, I went to Japan. I didn't stay more than 2 years because my employer at the time (an eikawa), exercised labor practices intended for employees who only wanted to "stick around a year or two." And, I did not do adequate language preparation.
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The equal pay as J sounds good, but that does not mean that wages need go up. So one gets paid for 40 hrs instead of just 29.5, and still gets 170000. |
You are far too cynical Rollingstone. Change can happen. Don't expect it to happen overnight. But, fear has kept many out of the union or more would join. When last working in Japan, when the Union wrote me, the J teachers at the school and manager snatched the mail addressed to me and told me to throw it out quickly. They said I would lose my job if I joined so just ignore it. A union meeting of members of my company was intercepted by the president, and teachers were summarily fired. So, you see the situation the industry is in. Foreign worker does not know system, employer takes advantage, foreign worker begins to realize they are being maltreated, union offers help, employer threatens those who will take action against them, foreign worker to afraid to join... |
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timothypfox
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 492
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Well, the problems seem fairly clear and up front -- transient unskilled workforce that generally stick around for a year or three and are looking for support money while they tour Japan. If they just wanted a `real` job they neednt travel around the globe to find it; obviously most are there because of extra-job attractions.
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Actually, I would like to take issue with you on these assumptions. I left Canada in 1997 with 2 undergraduate degrees in liberal arts, few job prospects, and student loans to pay. On a whim, I went to Japan. I didn't stay more than 2 years because my employer at the time (an eikawa), exercised labor practices intended for employees who only wanted to "stick around a year or two." And, I did not do adequate language preparation.
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The equal pay as J sounds good, but that does not mean that wages need go up. So one gets paid for 40 hrs instead of just 29.5, and still gets 170000. |
You are far too cynical Rollingstone. Change can happen. Don't expect it to happen overnight. But, fear has kept many out of the union or more would join. When last working in Japan, when the Union wrote me, the J teachers at the school and manager snatched the mail addressed to me and told me to throw it out quickly. They said I would lose my job if I joined so just ignore it. A union meeting of members of my company was intercepted by the president, and teachers were summarily fired. So, you see the situation the industry is in. Foreign worker does not know system, employer takes advantage, foreign worker begins to realize they are being maltreated, union offers help, employer threatens those who will take action against them, foreign worker to afraid to join... |
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