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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Never had a student loan myself, so can't really comment on the difficulties of repaying it, and so will have no difficulties returning home. In fact, back in the good ol' days of the ESF system, not only were all fees taken care of for me, but I recieved cash into my greasy little paw every month to help with living expenses. Now that was without doubt a form of welfare support, barely means-tested either, if memory serves. Not so sure if getting a loan that has to be repaid (by definition) is quite the same thing. Never heard of any one using the NHS having to pay back expenses. |
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Hod
Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
Location: Home
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nabby Adams wrote: |
| When I was at uni in England students on social science courses rejoiced in the fact that they were able to do as little work as possible. |
Good practice for life after uni with a BA.
As for student loans, people who default on loans, credit cards, etc, tend to be those who forget to pay rent or are happy to move on leaving bills unpaid. Unfortunately, the same people tend to be laissez-faire about most things. Why not just pay your way and not have to worry about what you can or cannot do in the future?
Last edited by Hod on Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Hod wrote: |
| Nabby Adams wrote: |
| When I was at uni in England students on social science courses rejoiced in the fact that they were able to do as little work as possible. |
Good practice for life after uni with a BA. |
LOL.... 
Lucky Engineer you... |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Hod wrote: |
| Nabby Adams wrote: |
| When I was at uni in England students on social science courses rejoiced in the fact that they were able to do as little work as possible. |
Good practice for life after uni with a BA.
As for student loans, people who default on loans, credit cards, etc, tend to be those who forget to pay rent or are happy to move on leaving bills unpaid. Unfortunately, the same people tend to be laissez-faire about most things. Why not just pay your way and not have to worry about what you can or cannot do in the future? |
Because often people are unable to pay their way at the age of eighteen. Thus a loan which they will pay back later when they are settled in life. Those who don't pay the loan back are likely to be the same people who, had they not gone to university, would take out a credit card with no intention of paying it back. |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
| And the welfare state works pretty well in my opinion. Police, roads, fire departments, unemployment benefits, etc. The only people I hear arguing against the welfare state are those who have been blessed with financial security from birth. |
Incorrect. I am middle class, American and I find the welfare state highly offensive.
I know this will make no sense to many here, but...
I do not want others who are better off than I to be forced to give me their money via taxes and government programs. For when this is the case, and the majority vote themselves the wealth, income and property of others "who have been blessed with financial security from birth...", what eventually happens is that the majority then get around to voting themselves MY and YOUR money. |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Middle class in America means you have financial security, the same in the UK. Ask the lower class how they feel about the welfare state and I'm sure you'll receive a different answer.
It's not a case of voting to take your money in what sounds like a fear of communism from your post. It's a case of helping out those who are most in need and as the majority of the USA is middle class I hardly think that they are going to vote to give all their money to the poor. The welfare system of Europe is more developed than that of the USA and it works perfectly fine and we've yet to to slip into a communist haze.
What's more, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to get voted into politics on the basis of 'I'm gonna give the poor all the rich people's money.' Student loans aren't an inherently evil idea. |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
Middle class in America means you have financial security, the same in the UK. Ask the lower class how they feel about the welfare state and I'm sure you'll receive a different answer.
It's not a case of voting to take your money in what sounds like a fear of communism from your post. It's a case of helping out those who are most in need and as the majority of the USA is middle class I hardly think that they are going to vote to give all their money to the poor. The welfare system of Europe is more developed than that of the USA and it works perfectly fine and we've yet to to slip into a communist haze.
What's more, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to get voted into politics on the basis of 'I'm gonna give the poor all the rich people's money.' Student loans aren't an inherently evil idea. |
You are a collectivist and believe in government force and violence. |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously, what country did you grow up in? Are you J. Edgar Hoover incarnate? |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
| Seriously, what country did you grow up in? Are you J. Edgar Hoover incarnate? |
Middleclass American and proud Libertarian, against government violence and force in all its forms, be it immoral wars or stealing people's wealth!
I like Ron Paul personally... |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
| Seriously, what country did you grow up in? Are you J. Edgar Hoover incarnate? |
BTW...the FBI is government violence incarnate...and completely unconstitutional.
Again, what right do you have to take someone else's money? Can you cite a rational reason? |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| mozzar wrote: |
| Seriously, what country did you grow up in? Are you J. Edgar Hoover incarnate? |
BTW...the FBI is government violence incarnate...and completely unconstitutional.
Again, what right do you have to take someone else's money? Can you cite a rational reason? |
If you are referring to the taking someone else's money as the loan, then your point is null. The loan is being paid back at a higher rate, allowing taxes to remain lower provided that people pay them back. The loan company would actually be making a profit.
A rational reason to tax people? To provide those services that benefit you but which would otherwise be unsafe in a private company's hands, e.g. police, fire department, healthcare. A country's responsiblity is the welfare of its citizens, all the citizens. Welfare encourages education of the population, provides a safety net should you fall upon hard times, and provide equal opportunties to those who were born without. To help make the country a better place those who are earning a large amount of money can be taxed to ensure that the poor may be given a chance to develop themselves. Because, at the end of the day, individuals and companies aren't socially responsible and it is the government's job to ensure the world doesn't become a *beep* fest of the rich exploiting the poor. |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mozzar wrote: |
| What's more, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to get voted into politics on the basis of 'I'm gonna give the poor all the rich people's money.' |
Obama was elected on just this precise platform. There are videos of his supporters explicitly stating as such.
"A country's responsibility is the welfare of its citizens, all the citizens."
My right to my property is more important that someone else's "right" to a given lifestyle, one enforced at gunpoint by the government via the confiscation of my labor, income and assets. |
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mozzar
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 339
Location: France
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| norwalkesl wrote: |
| mozzar wrote: |
| What's more, it would be incredibly difficult for someone to get voted into politics on the basis of 'I'm gonna give the poor all the rich people's money.' |
Obama was elected on just this precise platform. There are videos of his supporters explicitly stating as such. |
Cool. Are there any videos of him stating it? Because I'd have to admit to being an Obama supporter and I'd like to state: Obama is going to replace money with cheese. Stilton will be a $20 note and chedder will be a quarter.
Also, I'm from the UK so of course I'm a liberal minded sort. |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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As an American who has lived in Europe for twelve years...most of those Americans have zero idea what those European governments are actually like. It's all catchwords - the French are blahblahblah and Belgians (oh, they're different from Bulgarians??!!) are blah blah blah.
Those few Americans who actually are aware of what European health care is like are generally positive.
As am I.
I never promised unbiased posts 
But in truth, I'm entirely happy with the three socialised health care plans I participate in (Canada, Czech Rep, and Netherlands). And yes, I have in fact required fairly serious care (eyes, seriously problematic from early childhood) Yeah, I have gotten significantly better care than I would have in the States with a company-funded health insurance plan. Really. |
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