|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:50 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| seklarwia wrote: |
@ rxk22
Most of your links are years old.
This one doesn't even say anything close to what you are claiming it says:
http://brettgilbert.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-cant-japanese-people-speak-english.html
Perhaps you should read your evidence again.
And joking aside, did you read the captions of the pics in this link http://www.engrish.com/ . Because out of the 5 pics, 2 are from China! And I must say, I've seen far worse official signs signs on government building and heritage sites China.
I agree with Apsara: I've met plenty of Japanese people who have gained a fantastic grasp of English through Japanese schools, language schools, etc. Taxi drivers, shop assistants, old biddies on trains. I'm constantly having Eigo bandits approach me to use/show off their English... and no, they are not people who have spent a considerable amount of time in English speaking countries.
And in my last JH you could see just how much they were learning because most came in with zero English and not even able to write their names in Romaji and most left able to hold conversations and even the weaker students realised that effective communication didn't require the use of the exact vocabulary and perfect grammar and syntax.
Right now I have am teaching more than 1000 students at one HS, all of whom have an amazing grasp of English. And at my very low level school, many of the kids are quickly realising that their English isn't as terrible as they had imagined but they simply lacked the confidence to really have a go using what they know because they were constantly comparing themselves to their classmates who always seemed to learn, know and understand more.
And I have personally experienced language learning in a number of countries across the EU and I can say that the focus on grammar and written text comprehension is exactly the same as here and yet they manage to turf out lots of people with excellent English by the end of uni.
I'm not saying that the ed system is perfect here (although the kids here seem to be doing better than in the UK so they must be doing some things better) but it's not as terrible as you claim based on... still not sure how you come to your conclusions (but I'm seeing an almost trollish pattern in your posts of how you like to make baseless, sweeping (and whether you realise it or not; predujice statements about all kinds topics) but you are wrong.
I think the major failing in English learning over here (especially in comparison to the EU where language learning is quite similar but they tend to succeed) isn't one of education at all but that most Japanese people have little or no chance to put into practice what they have learnt in real life situations outside the classroom. How many times have you heard adults in English speaking countries claim to have learnt a foreign language in school for years and yet not be able to string together a basic sentence years later? Why? Same reason: lack of practice; if you don't apply new knowledge to reinforce it in your mind and/or don't continue to practice using it, you forget it.
The EU is full of arrogant Brits and Americans who believe that everybody else should learn English so they don't need to bother learning their languages, so the EU non-English speakers have plenty exposure to "real English" and plenty of opportunity to put into practice what they have learnt. And at uni on the continent, with students coming in from many different language backgrounds, it is very common for English to be used in social groups and the classroom as a common language. Just like in my dorm in Austria; I was one of only 2 brits out of hundreds of residents. There were a number of Americans but in total, us English speakers made up a very small percentage of the residents. The rest were predominantly Polish, Spanish or Chinese with a splattering of German, French, Finnish and Italian speakers. So the majority of the time every one was speaking English. |
Yes they are, some are new though. Just shows that nothing at all is changing, TIJ after all.
true, China is a big offender on Engrish.com, but they haven't dumped the time/effort into English edu like Japan has.
I must never meet these people. I know I didn't at Kansai Gaidai  I just get the weirdos, or the people who won't speak to me in Japanese for some odd reason, which can be annoying when i am asking about something.
I taught at HS, and now JHS, even though my kids like me, they don't try at all when it comes to English. System just is set up to make em apathetic. Got 9th grade kids who still can't answer any basic Qs. you are lucky and have a position where you have motivated kids. I know I haven't seen that.
I think the other failing, is that they don't have a goal. Study English for what? To get a job, or to travel? What is is? They really have no goal, save for taking their entrance exams. So, without a goal, they just mosey though odd ball topics, and don't go deep enough into the points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
seklarwia,
I honestly do not know anything about EU teaching, but I'd still have to assert that based on lots of conversations and readings, it's not the same as in Japan. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's just very hard to imagine. |
Just because you can't imagine doesn't mean it isn't happening. Like I said; I have experienced it. Great thing about being an ERASMUS student, you get to study in many different countries (and the EU government picks up the bill whilst we are studying FT abroad). But I first went to study abroad when I was 6 and have had various short stints at all levels of compulsory ed (sometimes my father's idea but other times just because I went to a high-level school that wanted us to do them).
| Quote: |
| In HS here, J teachers teach the grammar (sentence level at best, not article based at all) |
That's where you are wrong. My high level textbook are nothing but articles for all grades and my first years are currently dismantling Alice in Wonderland and Guliver's Travels. My low level school (and it is an infamously low level school) has much shorter texts and book extracts, too.
| Quote: |
| HS "English" consisted of J teachers in a separate lesson doling out some kind of grammar point, but so arcane that it was only directed at passing an entrance exam format. |
And in Spain it is aimed at passing the crazy employment exams. Think of it as entrance exams for jobs, because that is pretty much how it works... I was shocked when my Spanish teacher explained what she had to do to get a job as an English teacher before she came to teach Spanish in the UK.
Yes there was a speaking test included in the score but it only scored about a quarter of the marks and wasn't weighted alone, so if there were few applicants testing for the position in that area, chances are you could bomb the speaking and still get employed. That is why not all the older English teachers in Spain can actually speak English that well (the younger ones have had a lot more exposure to spoken English thanks to study exchanges and the amount of tourism)... but they can still teach the all important grammar and comprehension. Which is fine, because if the students continue to study English at uni they will then go on ERASMUS, which is where they will actually learn to speak English fluently if they haven't already had a lot of internation/intercultural experience throughout their school life (ERASMUS is a compulsory part of all courses majoring in foreign languages, although most students minoring in languages and even a number students who are taking one as an elective for credit will take at least 1 semester studying abroad).
| Quote: |
| By the way, just curious here. How fluent are the EU teachers in English, and what language do they use predominantly in class? |
Well 9/10 are not English natives if that is what you are asking. And they normally teach in the local language, just like here.
| Quote: |
| I think you know that most JTEs are horrible English speakers and often/usually teach in Japanese. This makes a difference. |
Mine have been pretty good so far and always willing to learn more (including ask me in front of the students if they were unsure about something - which happens a lot because the kids are always asking questions). I worked with 10 at my JH, 4 at my low level HS and I have enough contact with 12 of the JTEs at my high level school to know that they have decent English (there are some others at both my current HS that I haven't spoken enough to pass judgement). So far there has only one that I was worried about teaching with because his English did seem very suspect, but luckily he had to take a long leave of absence so I was never made to suffer his classes.
Yes, I've met some JTEs from other schools that were pretty awful (to the point that my JH JTEs used to take notes to giggle about later or whisper nasty remarks to me whilst they were still talking and I had to try not to laugh).
A lot of the teachers I have had or am working with have also spent time in English speaking countries or environments which is likely playing a big part in their ability and only reinforces in my mind that it is lack of exposure to real English that is the killer for most learners of English in Japan.
| Quote: |
| Also, do EU teachers allow 10-25% of their students in HS to sleep in class? Happens all the time in Japan, you know. Homework is practically nil, too. |
Depends on the teachers. I found that Italian teachers don't seem to care at all a lot of the time. And in schools like my sister's, the troublemakers were often left alone if only because the teachers were happy that they weren't disrupting the class.
My kids at both schools get homework. Not every lesson or anything but then neither did I when I was their age so I don't find that all too strange. I set homework at my high level school which is normally research/prep for the next class which they do. The JTEs normally set homework that requires marking and if they don't do it they get the chance to do it in inokori.
Of course, at my low level school I don't bother. For reading classes they are normally set pages to read through though the kids that do it don't really try to make sense of the text; they just highlight lots of individual words that they don't understand. Many of the kids don't do the homework but the teachers expect that.
| Quote: |
| Outranks? I find this hard to believe. Japan's system has gone downhill in past years, and not just in English. Gone are the days when people think that Japan leads the world in science and math. I saw the latest report on how good discipline was in Japan, and that report was total bunk! |
Again, just because you find this hard to believe doesn't mean it isn't true. Did you actually do a search on the organisation before you decided that. The proof is in the reading http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf. And no, not leading in math and science but in the top 10 and still ahead of us. And in case you want to know a little more about PISA: http://www.oecd.org/pages/0,3417,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AdamtheJohnson
Joined: 10 Nov 2008
Posts: 157
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sigh. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| In order to pass, only 60% was the bar, and students got endless chances to pass (sometimes the same exact test). Students get into college and then have zero motivation because of all this nonsense. Plus, college culture here allows them to coast through because there is no GPA system; employers hire students based on the name of the school, not grades. |
That sort of post content annoys me immensely. It is, to me, a prime example of the arrogance and monocultural mindset of some people here. Work through each sentence and marvel at the sheer audacity of denial and ignorance:
60% is the bar? So? A mark is a mark. I there some magical number that is better?
College culture allows them to coast because there is no GPA system? really? Care to offer any proof? You do realize that only the US really uses a GPA system, don't you? And yet other countries have success in motivating or having motivated students. Gosh, maybe it isn't the GPA system? Then again, look at the GPA system and tell me how it is *better*.
Employers hire students based on school name? The shock! That would never happen in the US. Why, all those US news rankings and employers visiting schools for reasons of prestige have nothing to do with name perception, do they? It really is the case that every student out of, say, Harvard or Yale really is better qualified than any other student. After all, look at Bush: he must be a business & history genius given his degrees from those two places. :roll: |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Let me rephrase for G Cthulhu.
I didn't say GPA was [u]better[/y]. Yes, I am used to a GPA system because I'm American, but don't scoff at it, because GPA is indeed considered very important in the US. It may not be used elsewhere, but it's important there. I would think the GPA would also be looked at by some foreign countries, too. No? But, to rephrase an earlier statement, many/most college grads are not hired on the basis of grades. They get jobs because employers consider their school's reputation to be more important. Also, the "old boy" network between their uni's advisor and employers is stronger in Japan than many places.
Yes, 60% is the bar. I'm surprised you didn't now that. The funny thing is, you avoided the other more important point. That is, students get endless chances to pass that miserably low bar (in courses including but not restricted to English). I've seen a kid take the same test 7 times! Were you also unaware that schools set a quota on grades? There must be X% with a score of 1, Y% with a score of 2, etc. Departments haggle over these things and manipulate the scores of every student just to fit the quota. How's that for fair? Universities aren't much better. Just ask any PT worker why he doesn't bother caring seriously about whether students pass or fail. Many times you'll get the answer, "Because I didn't want to buck the system that said they must all pass, or I'd lose my job." Kids in uni are in the habit of coming to a teacher at the end of the course they have failed (or hardly attended) and ask to do a "report" or some extra project just to add enough points to their grade to pass. Notorious in my school's science departments, but crazy as it may sound, the liberal arts teachers (philosophy, J literature, and English language) don't allow that.
seklarwia,
Thanks for the reply. As far as those employment exams go, they are in Japan, too, covering a variety of topics, as you probably know. However, an employment exam is not like a college entrance exam, especially with the arcane English in the latter.
As for your description of the wonderful JTEs you have worked with, I believe yours are the exception. Nice to have, but not standard practice. I and others often dream of motivated and enthusiastic, fairly high level JTEs who have had overseas experience!
| Quote: |
| Did you actually do a search on the organisation before you decided that. |
Yes, I did. Problem is, you are now ignoring the ranking of science and math when you said previously that Japan ranks high in "education". That's moving the goalposts and not fair discussion tactics.
| Quote: |
Quote:
In HS here, J teachers teach the grammar (sentence level at best, not article based at all)
That's where you are wrong. |
Again, maybe for where you worked, I am wrong. But I will disagree based on my own experience and that of others I know. It is largely sentence-level grammar translation teaching in Japan for the most part. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| Yes, I did. Problem is, you are now ignoring the ranking of science and math when you said previously that Japan ranks high in "education". That's moving the goalposts and not fair discussion tactics. |
No, I didn't! Look at the results again and tell me that Japan didn't score a whole lot better than both the US and the UK in both science and maths. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
| So you are countering my claim which is mainly based on hear say, with your claim equally based upon hearsay? |
Yes, it's called refutation through logical analogy - I demonstrated your assertion that every and any person involved in ELT in Japan is not actually teaching to be absurd.
| Quote: |
| Seems as though many many many people share my opinion, versus the couple of you with your anecdotal evidence. I am basing mine on literally the thousands of people who say the same thing that I do. |
And this is moving the goal posts. I haven't claimed that ELT in Japan is not in need of reform, particularly in the public sector. Indeed, if you look at some of my other posts here, you'll see that we agree on a range of issues related to it. The main difference is acknowledging that ELT in Japan is not a monolithic entity, and that there is a great deal of variety in the experiences, approaches and outcomes for the teachers and students. Just claiming "it's all shit" is a gross generalisation that does little to identify solutions to the problem and denigrates those who can and do work their arses off, teachers and students alike. You seem like a pretty smart guy, don't be lazy.
| Quote: |
| Yes there are some good teachers who can teach to their potential, and there is a smattering of good students, But again they are in the small minority. |
Thank you for conceding the point. |
I didn't say all, but it is pretty much the norm. I dislike it when people brag about their schools/situation like it's the norm, when in fact it is far from it.
Also, despite the law change ALTs are still ALTs, we have no actual teacher powers. Can't discipline the kids, can't make our own plans or plan for class. As anything we make can be vetoed on the spot by the JTE. I have to say that we are def still ALTs, and not full teachers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
seklarwia,
I honestly do not know anything about EU teaching, but I'd still have to assert that based on lots of conversations and readings, it's not the same as in Japan. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's just very hard to imagine.
In HS here, J teachers teach the grammar (sentence level at best, not article based at all), while foreign teachers largely teach only conversation classes in some vague way to reinforce the use of the grammar. It's pretty poorly done, though. Public schools have ALTs (some have none) who are under the thumb of the J teacher who often does not even acknowledge any usefulness of the ALT. Not always, but often. The teaching in private HS (my experience) was that foreign teachers' courses counted for a tiny fraction or zero percent of the English grades, too.
HS "English" consisted of J teachers in a separate lesson doling out some kind of grammar point, but so arcane that it was only directed at passing an entrance exam format. Nearly out of date grammar, scrambled sentences, or direct translation seemed to be the name of the game. Those in private schools with sister college affiliations didn't even have to take entrance exams, so they had no need to study. In order to pass, only 60% was the bar, and students got endless chances to pass (sometimes the same exact test). Students get into college and then have zero motivation because of all this nonsense. Plus, college culture here allows them to coast through because there is no GPA system; employers hire students based on the name of the school, not grades. (Most will put some emphasis on TOEIC scores nonetheless, but it's moot to me because they can't get more than about 400-450.)
| Quote: |
| I guess the JTEs make a huge impact. They are constantly striving to improve their own knowledge of English and are actually very enthusiatic about their subject which probably rubs off. And they are always attempting to expand on the boring contents of the text books. |
Yes, you're right that is is not impossible, but yours is the exception to the rule. Perhaps you got into a rare nice mixture of people, but by and large, your description is far from what is a regular school setting. How did your JTE's expand on the admittedly poor textbooks? Mine tried, often with help from the foreign teachers, but in the end it was poor student motivation that won out.
(We had 2 sister HS's who had discarded a crappy textbook years earlier, yet my school refused to dump it. No reason given, yet all JTEs and foreign teachers admitted it was worthless. Moreover, textbook selection changed every year, and they were chosen by people who didn't even teach (or had ever taught) the course!)
By the way, just curious here. How fluent are the EU teachers in English, and what language do they use predominantly in class? I think you know that most JTEs are horrible English speakers and often/usually teach in Japanese. This makes a difference. Also, do EU teachers allow 10-25% of their students in HS to sleep in class? Happens all the time in Japan, you know. Homework is practically nil, too.
| Quote: |
| PISA are constantly doing international education system comparisons and Japan always significantly out ranks both the UK and the US. |
Outranks? I find this hard to believe. Japan's system has gone downhill in past years, and not just in English. Gone are the days when people think that Japan leads the world in science and math. I saw the latest report on how good discipline was in Japan, and that report was total bunk! |
As much as it pains me, I agree with you 
I have met many Euros who have some great English ability. I even knew two Ducth guys who sometimes spoke to each other in English without knowing it.
As for my teaching XP in Japan, it is very disjointed, and very few points build upon the other. If you know I plus 1, it is about learning in a way that is only slightly hard. You shouldn't be learning a paragraph, and not understand 90% of it's grammar and vocab. You you only have to learn one or 2 points, and a few words.
It also amazes me how even after 6 years most SHS 12 graders can't answer basic Qs like what's your name?
30% seems to be the passing grade in JHS and HS.
On that note, had a kid graduate, and he skipped school for a solid 3 months. They gave him his degree anyhow. Now that is BS, but it seems as though it happens quite often. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
Let me rephrase for G Cthulhu.
I didn't say GPA was [u]better[/y]. Yes, I am used to a GPA system because I'm American, but don't scoff at it, because GPA is indeed considered very important in the US. It may not be used elsewhere, but it's important there. |
<ahem>
You might want to have another read of what you & I wrote there. You're busy engaging in a tautology and I was implying something completely different.
| Quote: |
I would think the GPA would also be looked at by some foreign countries, too. No?
|
Possibly, yes, but not the point I was making. *You* posted with a bucket load of implicit assumptions. There was no other way to read your post. I'm simply pointing out what I view as the assumptions and cultural bias at work. For example, you implicitly think GPA means something (anything) beyond the ability to perform in tests.
| Quote: |
But, to rephrase an earlier statement, many/most college grads are not hired on the basis of grades. They get jobs because employers consider their school's reputation to be more important. Also, the "old boy" network between their uni's advisor and employers is stronger in Japan than many places.
|
Again, so what? You implicitly suggest it's a bad thing, but the reality is Japan built the world's second biggest economy on that system. Conversely, it also stagnated into the 3rd biggest so maybe it does suck. *My* point is that you're busy implying that the system is bad without saying *why* it's bad.
| Quote: |
Yes, 60% is the bar. I'm surprised you didn't now that.
|
As opposed to the US arbitrary use of 70%? Or the old NZ system where 50% was the bar in some circumstances, 40% in others, and 80% in still others? Again, you appear blissfully unaware of teaching and education systems outside of Japan and the US: you can decry 60% as woeful, but you again haven't said anything about why that magical number is bad. You are, just to repeat it because it seems the point has to be made explicitly every time, assuming an awful lot.
| Quote: |
The funny thing is, you avoided the other more important point. That is, students get endless chances to pass that miserably low bar (in courses including but not restricted to English). I've seen a kid take the same test 7 times!
|
Yes. And.....?
| Quote: |
Were you also unaware that schools set a quota on grades? There must be X% with a score of 1, Y% with a score of 2, etc. Departments haggle over these things and manipulate the scores of every student just to fit the quota. How's that for fair?
|
Were you unaware that scaling to address grade variation across classes, schools, and education systems is very common throughout the world? That it's a perennial favourite for academic papers and argument, political discussion and tampering? Apparently not. Again, it's about context. Except for the way you describe the multiple test taking, nothing you've mentioned so far is anything unusual in the global context to my mind. Do you think that raw test data shouldn't be scaled? Do you understand the methodological problems with that and the difficulties in evaluating across schools or classes or regions when they aren't scaled or normed (or whatever phrase you prefer)? Do you not scale your students results? How do you guarantee test performance across a class or a year level or from year to year? Are you perfect at writing tests? Is everyone else in your department perfect? Because that's what you'd have to be in order to do away with an argument for scaling.
| Quote: |
Universities aren't much better. Just ask any PT worker why he doesn't bother caring seriously about whether students pass or fail. Many times you'll get the answer, "Because I didn't want to buck the system that said they must all pass, or I'd lose my job." Kids in uni are in the habit of coming to a teacher at the end of the course they have failed (or hardly attended) and ask to do a "report" or some extra project just to add enough points to their grade to pass. Notorious in my school's science departments, but crazy as it may sound, the liberal arts teachers (philosophy, J literature, and English language) don't allow that.
|
Yes, shocking, isn't it? That academic departments should have different policies on certain things. If only they would, say, all be locked into a system of non-normative grade inflation comparisons that foster test performance over skill and knowledge development.
Look, it's really simple: you can have your opinion, but please don't get upset when people call you on it. You may not like the Japanese system, but that's not important. Just like my opinion on the matter isn't important either: it's their system to do with as they please. When anyone starts on "They should do X" then that person needs to provide more of an argument than,"But they don't use what I'm used to!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenski wrote: |
| Yes, 60% is the bar. I'm surprised you didn't now that. The funny thing is, you avoided the other more important point. That is, students get endless chances to pass that miserably low bar (in courses including but not restricted to English). I've seen a kid take the same test 7 times! Were you also unaware that schools set a quota on grades? There must be X% with a score of 1, Y% with a score of 2, etc. |
I love that. Did you know that they do that for national exam grade boundaries in the UK, too? When I took the GCSEs, apparently there were so many kids that year unable to read, write or count that my school ended up looking like a super genius factory. In maths the grades across the country were so bad in the highest tier paper that 60% got you an A and you only needed 40% to pass with a grade C (A-C grades are considered the passing grades kids should be aiming for). Most of my year ended up with A or A*. And I had a predicted grade of B for English Lit which was based on the grading from the year prior... again most of us got A or A* myself included thanks to the scaling down of grade boundaries.
And if you don't think that's bad enough, at GCSEs passing grades are A-G!
Then there were the unconditional uni offers that were offered to many of us a couple of years later. Me along with most of the students taking pure math had to attend resits in our final year because we flunked or didn't even turn up to the final exam (we had a good reason although nobody outside the school or community knew about it). We pretty much all received uni acceptance letters long before the resit date thanks to a bad national performance and attending a school with a good rep.
And forget resiting the same test 7 times, when I was at uni there were some students who didn't turn up to classes ever, never did the course work and sometimes didn't even bother to turn up for finals. And they graduated just fine. The reason why was because for most units if you didn't do the course work it was often impossible to pass the unit even if you sat the finals, but if you failed you would be given a single capped-pass assignment or test. These were capped at the minimum pass mark (which was 40/80) but they were darned easy to pass. I got given one un-capped because I was in hospital at the time of finals for one unit but had already submitted all the course work. I ended up with a first in that unit eventhough it wasn't a subject I was particularly strong in.
I'm not sure why you are convinced that education systems in other countries are so much better than Japan. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| rxk22 wrote: |
I didn't say all, but it is pretty much the norm. I dislike it when people brag about their schools/situation like it's the norm, when in fact it is far from it.
Also, despite the law change ALTs are still ALTs, we have no actual teacher powers. Can't discipline the kids, can't make our own plans or plan for class. As anything we make can be vetoed on the spot by the JTE. I have to say that we are def still ALTs, and not full teachers. |
I have no issue with this - ELT in Japan is problematic. Few would deny that, and yes, it's dangerous to go from the particulsr to the general.
With regards to ALTs, I think that's realistically all one can expect to be - a teaching assistant. Unless a potential teacher can demonstrate proficiency in Japanese (by which I mean at least CEFR C1 - effective operational proficiency or C2 - mastery), they should not expect to be allowed to operate independently within a puclicly-funded school, regardless of their teaching qualifications or experience. An MFL teacher in schools in any of our home countries would be held to the same standard, as well as be required to show that the teaching qualifications they have obtained abroad meet the requirements for entry into the profession in the host country.
Personally, I believe the problems with Japanese EFL education run deeper than native speakers being largely deployed as ALTs. The goals are set too low in the curriculum documents I've seen, the proficiency levels of the JTEs I have met is problematic (although this is anecdotal), and from what I understand of entry requirements and qualifications in Japan, initial teacher training is inadequate, although I'd very much like to find out more about it in order to either confirm or disconfirm what I have seen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seklarwia wrote: |
| I'm not sure why you are convinced that education systems in other countries are so much better than Japan. |
I'm not sure facts/context are going to help this discussion.
Maybe the UK system needs GPA as the central feature in order to make it better?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
I'm not sure facts/context are going to help this discussion.
Maybe the UK system needs GPA as the central feature in order to make it better? |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
I didn't say all, but it is pretty much the norm. I dislike it when people brag about their schools/situation like it's the norm, when in fact it is far from it.
Also, despite the law change ALTs are still ALTs, we have no actual teacher powers. Can't discipline the kids, can't make our own plans or plan for class. As anything we make can be vetoed on the spot by the JTE. I have to say that we are def still ALTs, and not full teachers. |
I have no issue with this - ELT in Japan is problematic. Few would deny that, and yes, it's dangerous to go from the particulsr to the general.
With regards to ALTs, I think that's realistically all one can expect to be - a teaching assistant. Unless a potential teacher can demonstrate proficiency in Japanese (by which I mean at least CEFR C1 - effective operational proficiency or C2 - mastery), they should not expect to be allowed to operate independently within a puclicly-funded school, regardless of their teaching qualifications or experience. An MFL teacher in schools in any of our home countries would be held to the same standard, as well as be required to show that the teaching qualifications they have obtained abroad meet the requirements for entry into the profession in the host country.
Personally, I believe the problems with Japanese EFL education run deeper than native speakers being largely deployed as ALTs. The goals are set too low in the curriculum documents I've seen, the proficiency levels of the JTEs I have met is problematic (although this is anecdotal), and from what I understand of entry requirements and qualifications in Japan, initial teacher training is inadequate, although I'd very much like to find out more about it in order to either confirm or disconfirm what I have seen. |
Well, that was my orig point. People were coming down hard on the TS for not being super genki about teaching English in Japan. They werer painting a picture that I do not agree with.
As an ALT there is no clear path ahead of you to advance. If you have initiative, and figure out how to get a teching lisc, then you can go somewhere. if not, you are basically the mailroom clerk for life.
I agree with that, and I will add that the expectations and implimentation is all over the place. The JTEs will wildly over and underestimate their kid's abilities, making activities either far too hard, or stupid easy. Both of which do not foster growth.
On top of the JTEs English ability, I would add this; teaching comes second for teachers, and learning comes second for the kids. Meetins and clubs seem to be the real priority in their respective academic lives.
I also see that the JTEs don't put much if any prep time in for their classes. They just read from the book. I have always hated those classes as they from a student's POV are a waste o' time. This also makes the JTE's lesson never improve, so it's all about stagnating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ikki
Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Man, these threads can be a hoot! The OP, ostensibly serious, wants an EFL gig in Japan to finance the "good life" & because the great Yamato race "fascinates" him. Tell ya what mate: you take that, say, non-JET dispatch ALT job. 220K/mo. Maybe no pay during school breaks. 50K a month for rent(and God knows what kind of apartment you'll get). No paid airfare. Quite likely screwed out of overtime, pension, health insurance, etc. Maybe two hrs. commuting daily. You'll find out how "fascinating" Japan is. "Fascinating, fascinating" stuff indeed!
And to the other opposing legion of superheroes: Get off your high horse! Good Lord! 'You must be an "ambassador" for your country!' Talk about a crock of hooey. The day I'll be an ''ambassador" for my country in Japan is the day I'll be...well...appointed ambassador for my country in Japan...with the ridiculous pay & perks such parasitic la-di-das get. With the possible exception of JET, what great crusade do some of you think we're supposed to be on!? Do you think someone who is silly enough to take the aforementioned job conditions should then also be a paragon of "professionalism" and virtue in representing "their" country(the one that couldn't provide a univ. grad. with a decent job back home?)?
Man, some of you are demented.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
