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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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For the sake of context, I've taught adults exclusively for nearly 15 years now, and I also work with both intakes (placement assessments) and more extensive assessment for both proficiency and global skills.
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| You're right, a 10-min oral interview should be enough to simply place a student. But is that all we should be doing, especially with adults? |
An interview is the beginning with adult learners in my teaching contexts, and ten minutes is normally enough to place someone in an appropriate class. The goals and aims of the course itself are only partially formed at this stage, though.
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| The first time I taught an upper-int adult oral English class, I felt intimidated despite having a coursebook to follow. I knew they wanted plenty of speaking practice but without knowledge of their active, passive, and un-studied language, how could I ensure the majority would leave each lesson feeling they'd acquired something new? |
From my perspective, it seems to me that you are both over and under analysing this to some degree
On the over-analysing side, it would be basically impossible to determine the items you note above for each class participant, and then to harmonise that data into a tailored course that would somehow meet the exact needs of each participant. In a perfect world, this might be possible, but in the real world it simply isn't feasible.
On the under-analysing side, I think you're underestimating the degree to which a teacher experienced with adult (professional and other) learners is able to tailor a lesson and a course overall both in advance and in real time to respond to the goals and needs of the learners involved. You might also consider expanding goals beyond 'acquiring something new' - this isn't always the point of a lesson. It's also entirely valid to simply 'practice ABC' or to 'reinforce' or to 'review'.
The 'big' tests like Cambridge can give a better overview of a learner, but ultimately language teaching and learning is as much art as it is science. It really can't all be planned and predicted in advance of a course or a lesson, and fed out in nice easily digestible bites. The process of teaching and learning can get a bit messy, but good teachers and motivated students are generally able to find enough common ground to make progress. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Spiral78. Thanks for your reply. Do you do any more formal kinds of progress checks/tests with higher levels or do you just go by instinct?
I only have time to go by instinct with higher levels but ideally, i'd like to have more specifics as to their skills. For example, with adults, I get them to record a dialogue and then provide pronunication feedback. I assigned the online Grammar In Use Self-test to an interm student and if I had more time, would assign written homework. For the lower levels, I'm more familiar with what they know and don't after a 10-min interview so I know what skills specifically to work on.
Do you keep notes of class/individual performance as you teach? I recall a previous system I worked with where higher level students were provided the tools from lesson 1 with which to monitor their own progress. Actually, a major revision to the Cambridge series I use has been in this area of self-assessment. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Spiral78. Thanks for your reply. Do you do any more formal kinds of progress checks/tests with higher levels or do you just go by instinct?
I only have time to go by instinct with higher levels but ideally, i'd like to have more specifics as to their skills. For example, with adults, I get them to record a dialogue and then provide pronunication feedback. I assigned the online Grammar In Use Self-test to an interm student. This gives me the kinds of data I can use to inform my instruction and track progress over time. If I had more time, would assign written homework. For the lower levels, I'm more familiar with what they know and don't after a 10-min interview so I know what skills specifically to work on.
Do you keep notes of class/individual performance as you teach? I recall a previous system I worked with where higher level students were provided the tools from lesson 1 with which to monitor their own progress. Actually, a major revision to the Cambridge series I use has been in this area of self-assessment. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
| You're right, a 10-min oral interview should be enough to simply place a student. But is that all we should be doing, especially with adults? |
Yes. In any busy school, just putting the learners in the correct class is a massive help to the teacher who will be teaching. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
The first time I taught an upper-int adult oral English class, I felt intimidated despite having a coursebook to follow. I knew they wanted plenty of speaking practice but without knowledge of their active, passive, and un-studied language, how could I ensure the majority would leave each lesson feeling they'd acquired something new? Our school already hosted a free (for anyone) English corner wkly that many at their level attended.
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How long have you been teaching? Surely you know that at upper-levels the students do not expect to be wowed with 'newness'. As Spiral has already said, consolidation, and further practice are valid lesson aims. Few students doubt this either, in my experience. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
It's no surprise that this and another major franchise school I worked for have all but abandoned their adult programs. Only the illusion of learning is required for a children's program to succeed. I'm not sure who you're working for but in the private sector, if adults or whoever's paying for their instruction feel they're not learning, you don't just risk losing them but your reputation.
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I've been teaching adults for the better part of 15 years. Few schools in the private sector I have been in had the problems yuo have mentioned. Certainly clients need to see progress, but it is not as hard as you seem to maintain. The same with kids. I would dispute the 'illusion' part of your statement, simply because parents need to be satisfied their little darlings are making progress. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
If I were to sign up for a Chinese class at the intermediate level, I'd really appreciate someone taking more than 10 minutes to place me and using that data (along with data from classmates) to inform the instruction of whoever'd teach us.
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This is fine, if you are having individual classes and have specialised needs. But if you are joining a General class, then what would be the point? If it is an ESP type class, or CSP I suppose, then this is usually left to the teacher heading the course to find out what the group wants and needs. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| LongShiKong wrote: |
In the presentation stage of the lesson, teacher's generally elicit the grammar point/vocab as a means of testing familiarity. But to wait until the start of each lesson to do so isn't practical---what if the language you planned to practice that day is too easy for them? I'm used to teaching children but with adults, I feel I waste a lot of time finding out what language they know and don't and I can't keep that all in my head for every class. |
This assumes that all lessons follow a PPP modal. They do not have to. As for knowing what a group of adults needs or knows already, this comes with experience. And good lesson plans take account of situations where the teacher learns that some material won't be suitable.
In my experience, most learners all need close to the same thing. And if they already 'know' a language point, then there is still no harm in consolidating it. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Spiral78. Thanks for your reply. Do you do any more formal kinds of progress checks/tests with higher levels or do you just go by instinct? |
It's not about instinct. Because, like others here, I've got extensive experience and education in the field, I am more aware than most newbies of the types of linguistic markers that research has found to be fairly reliable indicators of level. There are also other cues that apply (willingness to speak, willingness to risk error, literacy and education level in L1, etc).
We do not leave intakes to new or inexperienced teachers, or to people who haven't done some study in assessment.
And yes, I'm involved in IELTS, Canadian Language Benchmarking, and another official proficiency test, so I do also use more formal/global methods of assessment when appropriate. But not for intakes for general English, or for most forms of ESP or EAP courses.
| Quote: |
| I recall a previous system I worked with where higher level students were provided the tools from lesson 1 with which to monitor their own progress. |
I know that the Eurocentres franchise uses something like this based solely on grammatical structures 'acquired.' In theory, this is very outdated and research hasn't found it to be any kind of an accurate indicator of proficiency. In practice, it's ponderous and unwieldy, and not very practical or useful. It is really more about the 'show' that the school can diagnose and prescribe, which is intended to inspire confidence in the school. It's a marketing tool, essentially. Student feedback indicated that it wasn't very effective, as would research in ELT. |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sasha, Spiral78, many thanks for your posts!
| Sasha wrote: |
| ...consolidation, and further practice are valid lesson aims. |
Yes, but I guess, as with children's courses, I'd like to demonstrate to myslelf, to them, and to prospective students (through recordings) a measurable difference between when they started such a course and completed it.
| Spiral78 wrote: |
| ...linguistic markers that research has found to be fairly reliable indicators of level. There are also other cues that apply (willingness to speak, willingness to risk error, literacy and education level in L1, etc). |
I've noticed this, especially over the past several months. Fortunately, I'm not tied to any rigid pacing with my adult courses as I am with children's courses so some small classes progress at 2-3x the speed of others. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd like to demonstrate to myslelf, to them, and to prospective students (through recordings) a measurable difference between when they started such a course and completed it. |
To be honest, I'd be very wary of recorded 'evidence' of language acquisition.
For example, over the course of an hour, most any student can practice a planned discourse to the point that he/she sounds quite fluent. This can be a question-and-response segment or something more free-flowing, but in either case it can be planned and practiced - and how would anyone be able to tell to what degree your recording is evidence of genuine progress? |
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LongShiKong
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 1082
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| To be honest, I'd be very wary of recorded 'evidence' of language acquisition. |
As an assessment tool, this is primarily for myself and my students. Let me quote from what I'd written on page 2 of this thread:
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| Ten years ago, a DoS complained about an adult who'd demanded his money back after apparently not learning anything. I suggested we begin recording initial placement interviews, mid- and end-of-term oral tests for all students. Had we done so, we'd at least be able to demonstrate the dramatic improvement most new or false beginners make in their first few months. |
The last time I taught a teens (interm) course, the speaking component pf the mid and final oral exam had me test 2 students at a time in a separate room. Following a set of questions directed at each, the pair were presented a hypothetical problem where they were asked to evaluate and prioritize a number of possible solutions. I was to mark them on a 1-5 scale. I forget the rubric now but I chose to record these for my own sake --I wanted to ensure consistency in marking--and theirs, so we could listen again in class following the exam.
Strangely, I've yet to even read about using recording tech in ELT. You'll find it in primary school literacy programs. One would think it's as essential to language learning as mirrors are to makeup artists. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:44 am Post subject: |
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Why should it be so important? Why not use written tests and texts as a means of showing progress? Much more manageable.
As it happens, audio equipment used to be big, back in the heyday of the language lab. But went out with the 70s. Maybe you can bring about a revival?
However, bear in mind that many teachers, myself included, often recommend that learners record themselves at home and playback in private. Can be very instructive for them. Yet few of them do so, and those that do find it an embarrassing and painful experience. To use this in a classroom would probably be worse.
IELTS does use recorders for its tests, for much the same reasons you have mentioned, consistency of marking, and also of handling of examiner materials. Again, candidates find this slightly intimidating, though with all the other possible sources of stress, this gets obscured somewhat. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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I've used recordings, but only in limited ways (such as for post-doc presentation practice). There is a clear distinction between recorded speech and extemporaneous speech in the literature; they are really not equivalent.
Recordings, as Sasha points out, can have some value in the learning process, but it's been waning as an accepted practice over the past few decades, due in part to the stress that invariably impacts the speaker when his/her words are being overtly recorded. Skews the measurements.
Never mind when they have to listen to them being played back - this can be quite stressful for some types of learners.
| Quote: |
| I'd like to demonstrate to myslelf, to them, and to prospective students (through recordings) |
I don't think there is any problem if your students don't object, but your note above about using the recordings of students as a tool for landing 'prospective students' seems a bit dodgy to me. That's why I question the validity of such recordings; there would be no way for a prospective student to know whether a set of recordings purporting to demonstrate progress have in fact been set up. I think there would also be issues of confidentiality - do you have permission to use the recordings of your students in other contexts? Not all will agree to such a use, I'm sure, even if it's done anonymously. We collect student papers to use anonymously as models, but only about 20% of students will typically sign the agreement on this. It's just a bit too personal for many. |
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