|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Cool Teacher wrote: |
 I think this is scaremongering and I don't know what you mean by Europena in a "biological sense" unless there are European genes or something. |
White birth rates are below replacement level in every Western country. Birth rates of immigrants in Europe (looking at African and Middle Eastern groups) have dropped recently, but still remain above replacement levels. Given the fact that these same groups keep coming into Europe, it is simply a matter of time before their numbers surpass and eventually replace the native whites.
And yes I was talking about the Caucasoid genetic population. Perhaps more importantly, the various cultures that Europe has housed for centuries.
I was not trying to veer into this tangent per se, but rather trying to point out the difference between much of contemporary Western/American thinking and many other countries (Japan, in this case). |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| "Citations needed"? It's a discussion, not an academic conference, and rhetorical flourishes are to be expected.[1] |
It's a very common internet forum phrasing which is a reference to Wikipedia. Unsubstantiated claims get tagged with "citation needed." It's a way to draw attention to disbelief when something has been claimed as fact. It is, in and of itself, a rhetorical flourish.
| Quote: |
| Moreover, I'd largely agree with jmatt's basic point: *IME* many countries have the same basic attitudes as far as "local" vs. "foreign". I have yet to find one where people would consistently be accepted as "a local" as opposed to "foreign" regardless of how long they'd been there. NZ and OZ don't do it, the US certainly doesn't, Canada and germany don't. Russia is pretty pathological about it. Etc., etc. |
I would not agree with you. The people who are not accepting of long term residents are the aberration, and we rightly (should) point them out as missing the point. My time in NZ has been measured in hours, but Canada and Australia? I just simply disagree. That's not what I've seen at all. I've seen "locals" in all three of those countries that look very different from me. My own suburb is now a completely mix. Still majority white, but plenty of African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Arab-Americans, Persian-Americans, etc. They're all Americans. If someone says otherwise, they're just being a jerk. That's an opinion, but one I believe is accurate.
"The US certainly doesn't" uhm, what? The only people who complain about all the "foreigners" are bigoted, most likely racist, jerks who are a minority, and who are considered very much wrong by the majority of the population. Not to mention that every single person who is on the North American continent is descended from someone who came from somewhere else. That even includes the Native Americans, because they crossed the land bridge across the Bering Strait.
| Quote: |
| 1. Why do Americans so often do this in discussions? It's infuriating. It's as if conversation can't range and everything is a contest to them, that original thoughts or opinions must come from somewhere/someone "on high" with "qualifications" to justify any old statement. It's as if they've never had an evening at the pub, bullshitting with mates. I've even seen them do it among friends in the social equivalent of an evening at the pub. |
Again, this is a meme. A reference to Wikipedia. A way of expressing disbelief in the "fact" stated. You are taking this far too seriously. You're also not limiting your complaint to me, which you should be. No reason to drag the rest of the United States population into a complaint you have about me.
Now, personally, the value of citations is that if you expect me to change my position (or stop challenging yours), then providing evidence of the truth of the statement given is valuable for doing so. You don't have to provide it, but I may ask for it from time to time, and if it isn't provided, I will not feel compelled to acknowledge your position as the correct one.
And no, personally, I don't really go out to bars. I'm allergic to smoke, so I generally can't. I do sit around with friends and have wide ranging political and philosophical discussions, but given those are academic discussions, the request for citations should not, and would not, seem odd. Of course you'd be asked for sources in an academic discussion. And such academic discussions are fun.
I tend to view most forum discussions the same way. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kionon wrote: |
If someone says otherwise, they're just being a jerk. That's an opinion, but one I believe is accurate.
"The US certainly doesn't" uhm, what? The only people who complain about all the "foreigners" are bigoted, most likely racist, jerks who are a minority, and who are considered very much wrong by the majority of the population. |
There we have it: if people don't agree with you, they're "racists" and "jerks". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| Made the better for it? Well, I will disagree with you on that. The US is dealing with large numbers of immigrants from the poorer nations south of its borders and Europe is being flooded with hostile, highly fertile Muslims who often show heaps of contempt for the host nation. Not sure Europe is becoming better. And I see a point at which it will not be "Europe" in any cultural or even biological sense. |
It's an opinion, so of course you can disagree. And we will have to agree to disagree. I have no interest in stopping immigration to the US from Latin American countries. In fact, I've argued elsewhere, that I believe the US has built much of its wealth on the back of illegal immigrants, and done so because it is too strict on immigration. I think we need to streamline the process and let more people come in legally. Anyone who wants to be an American, and doesn't have a criminal record (and even then, depends on the crime committed and if time served), should be able to become an American. Clearly a lot of people disagree with me, but that's what I believe.
| Quote: |
| As others have mentioned, the Asian nations generally have a strong sense of ethnic identity, nationalism, etc. To be honest, I find much of this "gaijin" complex issue to come from Western (or is it just American?) naivete. |
Citation needed. 
I kid, but I think you're mistaking naivete for strongly held principles. There's a difference.
| Quote: |
| Just because the US is evolving into a "propositional nation", with fewer and fewer linguistic and cultural cohesive mechanisms at work doesn't mean that everyone else will do the same. Just because contemporary Western thinking reduces culture down to its most base, materialistic level (food, clothing minus deeply rooted sense of identity, belonging and cultural behavioral patterns), doesn't mean everyone else will embrace a "one size fits all" culture. |
See, this is why I think your above comment is flawed. First, I would disagree about the United States not having fewer linguistic and cultural cohesiveness. Wild rants about the US turning into a second Mexico are just plain silly. We're not going to wake up one day and Spanish will be the dominant language. Just as Italian didn't become the national language. Or German before that (although there is an apocryphal story about how German almost became the national language).
Second I would disagree that all of Western thinking "reduces culture down to its most base, materialistic level." I just happen to believe that one is "unassimilable" due to racial or ethnic features is, well, quite honestly, wrong. I also refuse to put any cultural practice on a pedestal, and say, "well, that's cultural, so it isn't wrong." No, no cultural relativism from me. Certainly there are many, many ways of doing something right. That's where cultural variance should be celebrated, and where a newcomer to a country and culture, should make sure to assimilate. What I eat, how I dress, how I arrange my furniture, even my working style have all changed since I moved to Japan. I stick out in any social situation back in the US because of it.
Things I won't back down from, equal opportunity for women and minorities (whoever constitutes those minorities), immigration reform, strong international oversight bodies, etc, etc.
There are human rights, and there are human wrongs. These transcend cultural variance, and a strong sense of cultural identity can, and does, exist based solely in the "rights" category. The wrongs must be extinguished for the good of the species. Claims of cultural persecution get nowhere with me on that score...
...and now that the thread has been totally derailed, I must get bonus points.
| Quote: |
| There we have it: if people don't agree with you, they're "racists" and "jerks". |
How else would you describe someone who says, "Man, I can't stand those funny speaking brown people, I wish they'd go back to whateverstan" when those people have been in your country for ten years, and either have citizenship, or want it?
I call those people racist jerks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
