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artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

You say it�s got you thinking, but this is well-trodden old ground, Fluffy.

The reputable certs �sell� themselves for being what they are � an initial, introductory course that gives teachers some skills in the language classroom. Anything that�s a month long (when done intensively) could hardly hold itself up and proclaim to do more than it does.

Yes, people can learn on their own, but at some point if you want official recognition for all that learning, you take yourself along to the institutions that can give you that - and more. Personal satisfaction, meeting and sharing ideas with those working towards similar goals and a sense of achievement, as well as new insights, might also play a role.

fluffyhamster · Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:56 pm Post subject:

You didn't answer my question about what linguistic principles justify divvying up the language and its teaching thus. (Its actual learning from potentially non-native scratch is obviously not going to be an immediate problem for the native-speaker trainee teacher). Surely it would be better if the ELT establishment got a lot more holistic with its supposed training - it would help trainees be and see that much further ahead.

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

Yes, I�ve noticed this tendency to hold people to ransom when they apparently don�t answer questions satisfactorily. But oh no, no aggression happening here.

I don�t mean what you mean by �divvying up the language and its teaching�. Maybe you can explain yourself a bit more?

fluffyhamster · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:45 am Post subject:

I gave the example of ESP often now being the preserve of those with further qualifications. Are the linguistic resources employed so vastly different that a cert trainee could not grasp them, or should the cert trainee just stick at most to teaching the writing of postcards?

It should go without saying that one could gain a better understanding of passives, article usage etc etc etc from examining say some Academic prose and comparing it to casual speech, but the cert trainee is more or less restricted to the domain of speech (or at most a light news article or snippets of fiction) without really seeing what makes the language tick as and across its whole.

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

fluffyhamster · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:27 am Post subject:

I wasn't talking about Business English (which I'm not sure really qualifies as that specialist a sort of English, its jargon notwithstanding), which as you say Glenski is more tied to relevant experience than qualifications. And it is true that one can get into some sort of EAP (e.g. summer prep courses for overseas students in the UK) without further qualifications. Correct me if I am wrong however that most university positions in Japan for example (and I don't mean Westgate "professors" and such nonsense) require an MA, even to clean the lavvie. And Spiral's sort of job seems to be only for MAs and above. And so on and so forth. Yet whenever I ask how much the actual linguistic aspects involved differ (for native speakers and their understanding I mean) at the "higher" levels, I never receive much of an answer. Which brings me back as ever to querying the (deliberate and I would argue often unhelpful) limiting of the (linguistic) content of certs.

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

Looks like I have a spare minute or two after all though I intend to spend most of it elsewhere.

You mean because they don't teach grammar? I suggest you put your concerns to the Cambridge and Trinity examination boards about their certs and see what they say. I don't share them as I think it's fine to expect students to have a certain level of knowledge before they enter a cert course.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:18 am Post subject:

Dear, oh, dear. I go away for a short spell, and look at what has happened this thread. Such long, long posts! Clearly some of us are feeling in need of heavy-duty rationalisations. But perhaps you'll indulge me a few comments?

Firstly, there is a large degree of assumption, implication, personal criticism in many of the posts here - directed in the main against Spiral and me. I think this is unfair, and unworthy of civilized discourse, not to mention against the ToS. Remember them? For example, 'air of superiority'?

There is also a lot of rudeness: 'Haven't you been reading what Denim and Fluffy have written? They have told you! I won't reiterate unless necessary.' (Yes, I have read their posts, as it happens. Thank you for asking.)

And as for 'Just saying that the way you 2 write comes off differently than how you intend', this is most objectionable, given that it is not Spiral who has been regularly commented on for the use of aggressive, dismissive language and an intrusive, nay, invasive, inquisitorial manner. It is not Spiral who needs to worry about how posts come off. Not by a country mile.

Anyway, here's a question for teachers based in the Far East then: English learners from that region have massive problems with English communication. This is evident to any teacher based in Europe or North America who has to teach them in their home country. Clearly something is very wrong somewhere, as this is not the case with language learners form other parts of the world, Africa, India, Central Asia, where L1 is just as distant from English. So we are left with just two reasons to account for this failing on the Asian learners' part: they are incapable of learning, or, their lessons are lacking in some vital element that helps them to learn. Which reason would you favour?

Given that I and others have taught these same students successfully, using the methodology so despised by Fluffy (who still cannot articulate convincingly what he proposes to replace it) I strongly suspect it is the latter. And given that there are those of us here, based in the Far East, who profess to be knowledgeable of teaching methodology, yet cannot distinguish between a simple dictogloss and a dictation exercise, I also suspect that basic teacher-training and teacher knowledge may be an issue for a substantial number of teachers. It is all very well blaming institutional problems, or pointing to cultural oddities, but that does not account for poor teacher knowledge. Look at the China board. Pronunciation is the biggest issue that Chinese students have, yet how many teachers there know anything about IPA? Few. Most do not even see any value in knowing it. As for knowledge of grammar, ha! Don't get me started. (And yes, I have taught many Japanese and Korean students whose theoretical knowledge of English grammar would put most teachers here to shame.)

Argue it any way you want, but the situation stays the same. Teachers based in the Far East are not really 'teaching' in a way that is understood by professionals in the field elsewhere. Learners in Europe actually make progress, they can speak! They can arrive at a point where they are successful users of English, and this is not seen as exceptional at all. They expect more from their teachers, and they get it. EFLers who started out in the Far East need to seriously up-grade their teaching knowledge fast if they want to hold down their job in Europe. Teachers trained in Europe already have that basic knowledge, gleaned from the dreaded Celta, Delta, MA, and while they may have to adapt to local conditions if they moved to the Far East, but they would not be ignorant of basic practices in EFL.

Which is why I recommend that the OP does a Celta, rather than a waste-of-time online course, even if he wishes to teach in China or Thailand, or where ever.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:17 am Post subject:

Glenski, it is unfair when words are put in my mouth, when personal comments are 'tossed out' and when the rules of basic courtesy are routinely ignored. This is seriously beginning to grate on many more posters than my comments do. Don't expect detailed answers to your barbed demands.

By the way, can you tell us the difference now between a dictogloss and a dictation?

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Barbed demands? They are/were questions as innocent and sincere as they can be.

Since you won't answer mine, why should I answer yours? Nice attempt at a diversion, by the way...not!

I grow weary of this thread. I wonder why I joined it?

Sashadroogie · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:28 am Post subject:

It is not a diversion. I said that teachers based in the Far East can very often have serious limitations in their teaching knowledge. Not knowing the difference between dictogloss and dictation is a good, concrete example of that, provided by your good self a few months ago. You said you'd get back to us about it then, but I do not think you ever did.

I also wonder why you joined this thread. It wasn't to contribute sincerely to a discussion, that is certain.

Mr. Kalgukshi · Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 am Post subject:

The tone of this thread has gotten far too contentious and personal.

Some of you need to tone things down around here very quickly.

If not, I will tone things down very quickly and some of you will no longer be part of our friendly community.

This kind of thing may be common on some boards but not on this one.

If you think the shoe fits, it probably does.

This is the one and only warning you will receive.

Members noticing the kind of contentious and unfriendly tone exhibited on this thread on any thread anywhere on this board, please contact the Mod Team by Report Post or PM as soon as possible.