Job Discussion Forums

[mesmerod]

moonraven must be stuck on some acid trip from the 60's

[moonraven]

Acid doesn't last THAT long, but you DO need a brain to experience it....

[mesmerod]

no thanks....i dont need man-made chemicals to alter my state of mind.....i would hate for some weird paranoia to overtake my natural gift of logical reasoning

[moonraven]

I see, your medula altering chemicals come from another solar system....Guess I should have known. Logical reasoning and you are not even in the same galaxy....

[mesmerod]

i see science and astronomy were not your best subjects.
.
"man made" can be synonymous to "near zero probability of occuring in nature"
.
your "logic" only holds true within the bounds of the "reality" you have created in your head
.
i assume you enjoy the act of learning? if so, i suggest some math, physics, and astronomy courses to help understand scientific priciples... and you will be amazed at how you can apply those to any situation you encounter!

good luck.

[moonraven]

Funny you should mention those--I first entered university on a National Science Foundation scholarship in physics. Go peddle your bogus scientific persona to somebody who believes the world is flat....

[mesmerod]

lol....of course you did!


go peddle your "holier-than-thou-earthqueen-of-english-teaching" persona to some burned-out 60 year old hippies camping out in a tree in washington state

[moonraven]

Currently working with a group of scientists regarding the pulling aprt of our universe. While you are doing what--counting your toes? I leave you to that challenge.

[some waygug-in]

We could spend all day arguing back and forth, that proves nothing. If you want to know the truth follow the money.


Here are some facts:


http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html

THE SCOPE OF KNOWN INSIDER TRADING

Before looking further into these relationships it is necessary to look at the insider trading information that is being ignored by Reuters, The New York Times and other mass media. It is well documented that the CIA has long monitored such trades - in real time - as potential warnings of terrorist attacks and other economic moves contrary to U.S. interests. Previous stories in FTW have specifically highlighted the use of Promis software to monitor such trades.

It is necessary to understand only two key financial terms to understand the significance of these trades, "selling short" and "put options".

"Selling Short" is the borrowing of stock, selling it at current market prices, but not being required to actually produce the stock for some time. If the stock falls precipitously after the short contract is entered, the seller can then fulfill the contract by buying the stock after the price has fallen and complete the contract at the pre-crash price. These contracts often have a window of as long as four months.

"Put Options," are contracts giving the buyer the option to sell stocks at a later date. Purchased at nominal prices of, for example, $1.00 per share, they are sold in blocks of 100 shares. If exercised, they give the holder the option of selling selected stocks at a future date at a price set when the contract is issued. Thus, for an investment of $10,000 it might be possible to tie up 10,000 shares of United or American Airlines at $100 per share, and the seller of the option is then obligated to buy them if the option is executed. If the stock has fallen to $50 when the contract matures, the holder of the option can purchase the shares for $50 and immediately sell them for $100 - regardless of where the market then stands. A call option is the reverse of a put option, which is, in effect, a derivatives bet that the stock price will go up.

A September 21 story by the Israeli Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism, entitled "Black Tuesday: The World's Largest Insider Trading Scam?" documented the following trades connected to the September 11 attacks:

- Between September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put options on United Airlines, but only 396 call options. Assuming that 4,000 of the options were bought by people with advance knowledge of the imminent attacks, these "insiders" would have profited by almost $5 million.

- On September 10, 4,516 put options on American Airlines were bought on the Chicago exchange, compared to only 748 calls. Again, there was no news at that point to justify this imbalance; Again, assuming that 4,000 of these options trades represent "insiders," they would represent a gain of about $4 million.

- [The levels of put options purchased above were more than six times higher than normal.]

- No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday.

- Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 2,157 of its October $45 put options bought in the three trading days before Black Tuesday; this compares to an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6. Morgan Stanley's share price fell from $48.90 to $42.50 in the aftermath of the attacks. Assuming that 2,000 of these options contracts were bought based upon knowledge of the approaching attacks, their purchasers could have profited by at least $1.2 million.

- Merrill Lynch & Co., with headquarters near the Twin Towers, saw 12,215 October $45 put options bought in the four trading days before the attacks; the previous average volume in those shares had been 252 contracts per day [a 1200% increase!]. When trading resumed, Merrill's shares fell from $46.88 to $41.50; assuming that 11,000 option contracts were bought by "insiders," their profit would have been about $5.5 million.

- European regulators are examining trades in Germany's Munich Re, Switzerland's Swiss Re, and AXA of France, all major reinsurers with exposure to the Black Tuesday disaster. [FTW Note: AXA also owns more than 25% of American Airlines stock making the attacks a "double whammy" for them.]

On September 29, 2001 - in a vital story that has gone unnoticed by the major media - the San Francisco Chronicle reported, "Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11, terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data.

"The uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors - whose identities and nationalities have not been made public - had advance knowledge of the strikes." They don't dare show up now. The suspension of trading for four days after the attacks made it impossible to cash-out quickly and claim the prize before investigators started looking.


The fact that the Bush administration has quashed any and all efforts to investigate this says more than anything else in this case. Not only did members of the US government know what was about to happen, but memebers of large multi-national corperations in as many as 7 countries who profited directly from that knowlege.

Why has there been media silence about this?

Or the following is equally interesting:

http://www.copvcia.com/free/ww3/042202_bushknows.html

INSIDER TRADING

The documented pre-Sept. 11 insider trading that occurred before the attacks involved only companies hit hard by the attacks. They include United Airlines, American Airlines, Morgan Stanley, Merrill-Lynch, Axa Reinsurance, Marsh & McLennan, Munich Reinsurance, Swiss Reinsurance, and Citigroup.

In order to argue that the massive and well-documented insider trading that occurred in at least seven countries immediately before the attacks of Sept. 11 did not serve as a warning to intelligence agencies, then it is necessary to argue that no one was aware of the trades as they were occurring, and that intelligence and law enforcement agencies of most industrialized nations do not monitor stock trades in real time to warn of impending attacks. Both assertions are false. Both assertions would also ignore the fact that the current executive vice president of the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) for enforcement is David Doherty, a retired CIA general counsel. And also ignored is the fact that the trading in United Airlines stock -- one of the most glaring clues -- was placed through the firm Deutschebank/Alex Brown, which was headed until 1998 by the man who is now the executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard.

One wonders if it was a coincidence then, that Mayo Shattuck III, the head of the Alex Brown unit of Deutschebank -- which had its offices in the WTC -- suddenly resigned from a $30 million, three-year contract on Sept. 12, as reported by the New York Times and other papers.

The American exchanges that handle these trades, primarily the Chicago Board of Options Exchange (CBOE) and the NYSE, know on a daily basis what levels of put options are purchased. "Put options" are highly leveraged bets, tying up blocks of stock, that a given stock's share price will fall dramatically. To quote 60 Minutes from Sept. 19, "Sources tell CBS News that the afternoon before the attack, alarm bells were sounding over unusual trading in the U.S. stock options market."
It is hard to believe that they missed:

- A jump in UAL put options 90 times (not 90 percent) above normal between Sept. 6 and Sept.10, and 285 times higher than average on the Thursday before the attack. [CBS News, Sept. 26]

- A jump in American Airlines put options 60 times (not 60 percent) above normal on the day before the attacks. [CBS News, Sept. 26]

- No similar trading occurred on any other airlines. [Bloomberg Business Report, the Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), Herzliyya, Israel citing data from the CBOE]

- Morgan Stanley saw, between Sept. 7 and Sept.10, an increase of 27 times (not 27 percent) in the purchase of put options on its shares. [ICT Report, "Mechanics of Possible Bin-Laden Insider Trading Scam," Sept. 21, citing data from the CBOE].

- Merrill-Lynch saw a jump of more than 12 times the normal level of put options in the four trading days before the attacks. [Ibid]

These trades were certainly noticed after the attacks.

"This could very well be insider trading at the worst, most horrific, most evil use you've ever seen in your entire life... This would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it was a coincidence," said Dylan Ratigan of Bloomberg Business News, interviewed on Good Morning Texas on Sept. 20.

"I saw put-call numbers higher than I've ever seen in 10 years of following the markets, particularly the options markets,' said John Kinnucan, principal of Broadband Research, as quoted in the San Francisco Chronicle," reported the Montreal Gazette on Sept. 19. The paper also wrote, "Agence France Presse, on Sept. 22, reported, 'And Germany's Bundesbank chief, Ernst Weltke, said on the sidelines of the meeting that a report of the investigation showed "bizarre" fiscal transactions prior to the attacks that could not have been chalked up to coincidence.

"Weltke said the transactions, 'could not have been planned and carried out without a certain knowledge,' particularly heavy trading in oil and gold futures."

ABC World News reported on Sept. 20, "Jonathan Winer, an ABC News consultant said, 'it's absolutely unprecedented to see cases of insider trading covering the entire world from Japan, to the U.S., to North America, to Europe."

How much money was involved? Andreas von Bulow, a former member of the German Parliament responsible for oversight of Germanys intelligence services estimated the worldwide amount at $15 billion, according to Tagesspiegel on Jan. 13. Other experts have estimated the amount at $12 billion. CBS News gave a conservative estimate of $100 million.

Not a single U.S. or foreign investigative agency has announced any arrests or developments in the investigation of these trades, the most telling evidence of foreknowledge of the attacks. This, in spite of the fact that former Security and Exchange Commission enforcement chief William McLucas told Bloomberg News that regulators would "certainly be able to track down every trade."

What is striking is that a National Public Radio report on Oct. 16 reported Britain’s Financial Services Authority had cleared bin Laden and his henchmen of insider trading. If not bin Laden, then who else had advance knowledge?

It has been standard and established USG policy to be alert and responsive to anything even remotely resembling an attack on U.S. companies and/or the economy. The word "remote" does not apply here. The possible claim by the Bush Administration that, 'Gee, we just happened to miss this,' becomes even more implausible when considering the lengths intelligence agencies go to in order to track stock trades.

Note that the Israeli Institute for Counter-Terrorism was the first entity to release a detailed report on the insider trading. That alone is prima facie evidence of a direct relationship between the financial markets and terrorist investigations.





How could anyone in their right mind conclude that these things are "irrelevant", as the 9/11 commision report has done, is beyond me.

[mesmerod]

lol what challenge?

to discuss the "pulling apart" of our universe? i'd really like to hear your thoughts because if the universe is being "pulled apart" then that means there exists some force or matter outside this universe acting upon the boundaries of this universe. please do explain.

[MJS]

ok I lied THIS is my last post

[some waygug-in]

I don't believe that Bush has the brains or the cajones to pull off anything like that either, but that doesn't mean there aren't other members of the CIA, FBI and whatever other secretive government departments who could have done this.

If all those insider trades were connected to Al Qaeda, why the secrecy? Why isn't there an open investigation into who made those trades etc?


peace

[Hod]

[moonraven]

some-waygug-in:

In the financial transactions you mentioned the Carlyle Group was one of the major traders--guess who is on the advisory board? George Bush, Padre. It was estimated that he made around 600 million dollars off those trades. Nice piece of change--easy to trade off a few lives for that if you have already had a history of doing so as head of the CIA and as president during the invasion of Panama (more killed than on 9/11, but they didn't count because they were Panamanians) and the First Gulf War (no reliable figures released because, like in the current war--to quote Rumsfeld, they didn't keep track of "collateral damage".) Collateral damage: those were also the almost 3,000 people who lost their lives in the 9/11 caper.

The Bush family has a history of sleeping with the enemy--not just with Osama BinLaden, either--W's grandfather got into hot water for his cosy financial relationship with Adolf Hitler.

[Stephen Jones]

Moonraven et al are attacking a strawman. Nobody has suggested that Bin Laden worked out all the logisitics from Afghanisitan. Like all good managers Bin Laden has heard of delegation.

The financial figiures are meaningless. $5 million dollars of American Airlines stock doesn't even cover refurbishng the cabins of one plane.

The American government, unlike the Russian government that blew up apartment buildings in Moscow in 1999 in order to win the election and justfy a retaliatory invasion of Chechnya, does not go around committing terrorist acts against its own citizens - Nicaraguans and Italians are of course another matter.