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JonnytheMann
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: THERE IS NO H IN MY NAME |
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Most Annoying ESL Cafe Misspelled Word EVER:
JONNY
My name is not Johnny. |
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duskshade
Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Henry Cowell,
That is not how you use "y'all." There ARE rules. 
OK. In a second, I'm going to write a post that makes me look like a pedantic fool. But I, too, like the word "y'all," and I would also argue that the English language is lacking in this regard - there SHOULD be a pronoun for the second person singular. It amazes me that anyone would have to even point that out.
What's even MORE amazing is that English USED TO have one! Thou/thee/thy/thine was exactly that. Why in hell did we just let it go??
As for the rules governing "y'all": You would use "y'all" to introduce the fact that you are addressing more than one person, but you'd revert to the standard "you" once the point is made -
"Y'all have to work late, but you can do it any night you choose."
Also, note that "y'all" does NOT necessarily mean "all of you." It is simply a plural form of "you," and as such, it is not redundant to emphasize "all" of the people being addressed. That is, if you are addressing a group, and there is any doubt that some of the listeners might be excluded, the expression "all y'all" is perfectly acceptable.
Also note that in Henry's example, the second "y'all" IS redundant.
And I know this sounds like I'm taking the piss, and I SORT OF am, but it's also true - a native speaker of a dialect that uses "y'all" would instinctively follow these rules. "Y'all got y'all's tennis balls?" would only come from the mouth of someone making fun or else pretending to use that dialect. A Carolinean, for example, would say something like, "Y'all got'cher tennis balls?"
It's easy to make fun of that dialect, but it's pretty distinct. Also, it is a grave mistake to assume that a user of that dialect is ignorant. I know plenty of people who have used that misconception to their advantage. We've all seen TV shows that depict it, but a lot of people still make that mistake, and I don't know why.
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native Texan here... y'all tends to be used here as a generic reference to both single individuals and groups...
As told by my Dept. Head...
Johnny moved to Texas, and earned a place on the varsity squad playing (American) football. The game comes, and the opposing team keeps the home team from advancing.
Coach tells the team, during a time-out, "I want y'all to make a hole and run through to the other side." Johnny, being an upstanding man, follows this advice, where he promptly runs into the opposition and is sent to hospital with a broken arm and a concussion.
The next day, Coach shows up to talk to him.
"Y'ok, son?
"Yeah, I'm fine. How come nobody else followed me into the hole? I would have made it through if the other players had come."
"Son, if I had wanted all y'all to go, I would have said all y'all
My linguisitics prof. tells me that y'all in functional Southern slang has not solidified here in Texas the way it has solidified in other regions. Because of the more fluid use of y'all in language, often, a numeric identifier is coupled with it to indicate a singular or group subject. |
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merlin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 582
Location: Somewhere between Camelot and NeverNeverLand
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:14 am Post subject: |
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The image suddenly popped into my mind of a 4th of July Barbeque where a Texan linguistics professor and a Dixieland Linguistics professor impressing their kinfolk with their insight into the difference between y'all and alla y'all
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JonnytheMann
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Why was the football player in your story named Johnny?  |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Gregor wrote: |
Henry Cowell,
That is not how you use "y'all." There ARE rules. |
Maybe you should tell that to the Floridians I know who utter the exact sentence that I quoted. (Well, maybe not the tennis balls part. That was for Jonny.) |
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JonnytheMann
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 337
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Awww, you spelled my name correctly and mentioned tennis! Thank you.  |
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Freestyle T
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 494
Location: Charming Chengdu
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Fourty. |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I never said that southerners were linguistic geniuses. So some Floridians made a mistake. And Texans haven't worked it out yet, evidently. Southerners (Carolineans, anyway) make fun of people who say "all y'all."
I might should admit that I haven't actually been in the U.S. - anywhere - for about ten years, so my information might be a bit outdated.
And yes, I'm aware that I used two modals together just now. I'm not sure HOW exactly to express that thought otherwise, other than the circuitous and overly-formal "Perhaps I should..." That's how it's done...or was done...somewhere...a long time ago...
I reckon I just need to go back to my country and learn how they talk these days. |
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merlin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 582
Location: Somewhere between Camelot and NeverNeverLand
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| You can use "I mighta shoulda ..." |
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nickynunu
Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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hi there---
gregor keeps mentioning carolinians and what they do and do not say.
Southerners (Carolineans, anyway) make fun of people who say "all y'all."
I've been here 27 years almost now and "all y'all" while not a very high-prestige form is definitely used by just about anybody you talk to. Its most familiar context would be in the vulgar expletive phrase "f@*k all y'all!!!"
And where I'm from, "y'all" definitely takes a possessive "y'all's".
A Carolinean, for example, would say something like, "Y'all got'cher tennis balls?"
But you might've been talking about South Carolinians, so who knows how those people talk.
if the vogue for southern hip-hop music continues unabated all of america will probably be saying "y'all" within a generation, so it's good to get the usage hammered out already.
rwarm regards to all |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregor wrote: |
| So some Floridians made a mistake. And Texans haven't worked it out yet, evidently.... I might should admit that I haven't actually been in the U.S. - anywhere - for about ten years, so my information might be a bit outdated.... I reckon I just need to go back to my country and learn how they talk these days. |
I reckon you should stop trying to make generalisations and rules for native speakers. Your rules will always be broken by someone or other, and such utterances won't be 'mistakes'.  |
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Chasgul
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 168
Location: BG
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately there is an entire industry that was created to explain just those 'mistakes'. Apparently it looks set to become a growth industry.
Before Fourty you have to have got past Tirty. |
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merlin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 582
Location: Somewhere between Camelot and NeverNeverLand
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Whyatever happened to ebonics?
It started out in the early '90s but I haven't heard much about it since.
Is it still alive and well? |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ebonics is indeed alive and well in urban America. It's just that the media have long since ignored it because it is no longer on the front pages and the cable news shows. It had its 15 minutes of fame but persists as a perfectly legitimate variety of American English. |
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