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stil
Joined: 23 Jun 2003
Posts: 259
Location: Hunan
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 Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: |
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It's true, a FT can take it or leave it. My worry about a probation pay scale is that it gives a school a monetary reason to change FT after 3 months rather than only evaluating the teachers' skills/suitability.
How does the visa situation work for a probation period?
BTW Babs, your new avatar has made me miss home for the first time i can remember. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Stil if you take a job where a probationary rate is applied in conjunction with other wage hikes such as a final 3 month bonus wages that is supposed to make up for the initial probation rate - especially the kind of huge 1000 Rmb jumps babala talks about in her post - instead of getting a constant 12 month wage (presuming the net sum of this wage equals that of the wage with probation, bonuses etc.) - then right up to the 11th month (not just 3) you are vunerable to loosing out on a deal that looks attractive and straight forward on paper, but is run by an unscrupulous boss who will prematurely sack employees to save extra money ontop of a normal wage level saving!
For the newbies who think a contract will protect them in this kind of situation - well they are usually about as one sided and as difficult to apply in the FT's favour as any probationary period  |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| It's not called a probationary period at my school. The contract just states that you begin at said wage and then your salary is increased at the periods I mentioned before. The Z visa is given right away. The school does not sack FT's before their wage goes up. I also find that some of the school that employ these terms tend to be in the higher paying catergories. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Babala - this isn't about your school - I'm sure you're having a lovely time there - this is about advising FT's about the pitfalls and traps that so easly swallow up the unwary FT!
Now let me explain this in a nice easy to understand way - In a nice fair world where both employer and employee are protected by the enforcable laws of the land - any agreed wage levels are just that, a legaly guaranteed wage level, regardless of how much they increase over a period. But here babala - you must agree with me on this at least - that even though you migh feel secure in your tiny part of FT world - other parts of this market are far from cosy - even our friend Gregor (who also can only argue just from the viewpoint of his one school) admits the sharks are a circling in Chinese TESOL seas!!!
So in short - without any easy to use laws that protect the FT - accepting a wage scheme which starts on a decreased rate - because you are on a probation - but where you are promissed this money back with a pay hike in the last three months - cannot only be viewed as unfair, since many of us believe that probation should not have anything to do with a wage sanction - but is also, with a view to the uncertanties associated with this work environment, taking a gamble!!!! ie. will I ever see that promissed money
So with this in mind, anybody negotiating a wage here - in my humble opinion - would best look at the wage offer and ask for it to be paid a a constant rate over the year - because money in your pocket (as long as it aint false) seems to be more dependable than many contracts your going to asked to sighn
And before others jump in here and shout - well aint those poor bosses also taking a gamble by hiring those fly by night FT's - sure they are - but hells bells they can go and organise themselves - this is our forum where we can discuss our side of the game |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| superdave01 wrote: |
| ...the onus is on the the person doing the hiring to conduct proper interviews and check all references to ensure that he is not hiring a moron...probationary periods are used by those companies who have lazy or inept people working in human resources. |
You seem to be overlooking the flip side to this argument which is that probationary periods also give the teacher the right to end the contract without facing repercussions.
By your logic teachers who find out that they have made a bad choice of schools must be morons too. I don't agree with this. It is only by working in the school that one can determine your suitability to the position and that does not mean that either you nor the school are in the wrong, just that things are different than you expected. Having the opportunity to leave seems the best option.
| stil wrote: |
| My worry about a probation pay scale is that it gives a school a monetary reason to change FT after 3 months rather than only evaluating the teachers' skills/suitability. |
There are schools out there that will certainly take advantage of this by getting rid of the teacher rather than raising the wage or finding excuses to delay the payment of the wage increase. These are the very same sorts of schools that would fire a teacher 11 months into a 12 month contract to avoid paying contract completion bonuses and airfare reimbursement etc.
So it seems to me that the teacher is better off knowing this at the end of the probation period when one knows that he or she can walk away without penalty rather than finding this out after wasting 11 months working there.
Having said this, schools that offer higher wages after a probationary period do tend to be more professional outfits and therefore one would have to question the value of firing teachers every three months to avoid paying an extra RMB500 per month for the fact that they are experienced.
Add to this fact that this would have to be repetitive action and therefore word would soon get out about any school that was doing this. I have not heard about any schools that habitually do this but I welcome anyone who can to name such a school here as it is something that would help teachers.
| stil wrote: |
| How does the visa situation work for a probation period? |
My understanding is as follows.
Theoretically you would be able to change to a new employer within the probation period as leaving is not a breach of contract in those cases. Your new employer would need to do the relevant paperwork to enable this but you wouldn't need to do your medical etc again provided that you stayed in the same industry and the same provincial area.
In practice the acceptance of this probably comes down to how responsive your local PSB is to this practice. You have the law on your side but as we all know it is what happens in practice that can make all the difference.
Last edited by clark.w.griswald on Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| You seem to be overlooking the flip side to this argument which is that probationary periods also give the teacher the right to end the contract without facing repercussions. |
why should the FT have to pay for this right out of her wage packet through a probationary wage rate!!!!!!!!!!
probationary period sure - but C how do you justify the probationary wage rate???? |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| why should the FT have to pay for this right out of her wage packet through a probationary wage rate!!!!!!!!!! |
That is your view vikdk and you are entitled to it, but most here don't seem to agree that it is a realistic view of the situation.
You assume that the probationary wage is automatically a reduced wage. I see the probationary wage as being a starting or base wage, which you can improve upon the longer you work there and the better a teacher you become. Reward for your work.
I accept that there are a minority of schools that do abuse such a system but I see no evidence of this abuse being widespread.
It would not be difficult to prove your point however vikdk if it were true. By using a webarchive website such as the waybackmachine you should be able to find job ads for pre- and post-probationary wage offerings and show us all how many schools are actually doing what you suggest is common practice.
You have stated in this thread a number of times that your aim here is to help foreign teachers so here is your chance to spend a bit of your time researching something and come back to us all with the results. I am sure that you will find some excuse not to do this, but I feel it a valid suggestion considering the efforts you have expended here trying to argue your point. |
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Babala
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 1303
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Clark. This is what I was also trying to state. I see starting at a base rate and then having that rate increased.
vikdk, I do realize that this issue is not about my school. I am saying that in general, I don't see the problem with a starting wage and then increases coming later on (just make sure to get it put right into the contract). I look at this way, had I gone with the advice you were giving, I never would had signed on to my school where I am having a lovely time  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Babala wrote: |
| I look at this way, had I gone with the advice you were giving, I never would had signed on to my school where I am having a lovely time |
I think that this is the main reason that I have a problem with a lot of the advice that vikdk dispenses here. It is well and good to point out what he sees as being problems with the system, anyone could do that. But he seems to be quite low on feasible solutions. I think that this current discussion is a good case of this.
Following the advice to avoid positions with probationary wages a teacher would possibly end up working in a government institution or the like that offers a fixed wage. You start with a wage, work all year and no matter how well or badly you do, that is the wage that you earn for the duration of your contract. I can see that this may suit some people to a tee, but I believe that most employees like to receive financial recognition for doing a good job. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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babala - be prepaired for a que of new applicants on monday morning really - it's not about you, or your lovely job - it's about the thousands of other unregulated jobs out there. I'm sure many of them are very nice - Clark's buxiban site has managed to give 5 of them the green light - but a few others are a little iffy.
Now what good is my advice -
1. it's a way of telling FT's things may look calm and promising on the surface but look deeper - WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!
2. it warns that promises and agreements from the side of the employer may be very difficult to enforce if they are brocken.
3. in the case of probationary wages they could be an indication of future wheeler dealing that will be against the interests of the FT.
This doesn't mean to say it's impossible to find a good job here - or indeed that you'll be cheated, but babala just because you can jump up say look at me I'm happy, that I have to shut up and say well some things suck so lets put up with it
So that last piece of advice -
anybody negotiating a wage here - in my humble opinion - would best look at the wage offer and ask for it to be paid at a constant rate over the year - because money in your pocket (as long as it aint false) seems to be more dependable than many contracts your going to asked to sighn
another interesting point- Clark writes -
| Quote: |
| You assume that the probationary wage is automatically a reduced wage. I see the probationary wage as being a starting or base wage, which you can improve upon the longer you work there and the better a teacher you become. Reward for your work. |
funny thing about these probationary teachers is in many situations they seem to be taking on full teaching responsibilities within the month - more like cheaper versions of the fully fledged FT than any beginer or trainee - but then I'm sure that's a subject for another thread |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You seem to be overlooking the flip side to this argument which is that probationary periods also give the teacher the right to end the contract without facing repercussions. |
why should the FT have to pay for this right out of her wage packet through a probationary wage rate!!!!!!!!!!
probationary period sure - but C how do you justify the probationary wage rate???? |
A rhetorical question for my nemesis: why shouldn't the FT pay out of his relatively inflated wages?
As I said before, I am not totally in support of employer privileges at the expense of FTs.
Here is a case to show why:
A Singapore-born Aussie girl complained to me a couple of years ago that her employer had reduced her salary on the observation that her performance was "lacklustre" in comparison to the performances of all other FTs.
She was then assigned a special job - coaching the kids of the Principal of a privately-owned college in English - so that they could eventually enroll at an Australian university.
What was most galling was that the pay of this young woman plummeted from somewhere above 4000 to 2200 or so even though she did the same number of lessons every week.
The fact that her assessment had been entirely subjective (or self-serving as the case might have been) didn't give her any leverage over her employer.
But you know - she remained on her job until her last day. Fact is that schools almost always get away with such shenanigans! |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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wow with a post like that Roger you got me beat
I'm going to frame that one |
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superdave01
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 22
Location: canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| superdave01 wrote: |
| ...the onus is on the the person doing the hiring to conduct proper interviews and check all references to ensure that he is not hiring a moron...probationary periods are used by those companies who have lazy or inept people working in human resources. |
You seem to be overlooking the flip side to this argument which is that probationary periods also give the teacher the right to end the contract without facing repercussions.
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good point clark...IF it is the teacher who INSISTS on adding probationary periods(and probationary pay) to the contract...the fact is, it is the employer who dictates the contract terms...probationary periods(pay) can be and are abused by many chinese companies...it is the teacher who is left high and dry when that happens....why chance it? teach elsewhere. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:14 am Post subject: "The Probationary Period" |
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Absolutely! It is the employer who dictates ....
However, in franchised schools it shall not be the employer as I've tried to point out before with one ignorant Director of Studies from "A FRANCHISED CENTER" contradicting me on this forum and with some misleading points of his too.
Franchised schools have Head Offices and Franchisors have "standard contracts" for their centers around. Too bad that some employers and some foreign academic managers go against that and even worse that some academic managers as the one above mentioned are sooo b*tchwhipped" as they are. Then, FTs have deffinetely no choice.
| Quote: |
the bottom line - who's bottom line
Not my bottom line - since your three way choice certainly doesn't leave much room for a discussion on something to do with the rights and conditions of FT's in China - maybe the management don't want us to discuss some of the unpleasant facts surrounding the probationary period, but to tell us to be quiet - because you think that this is a personal attack on you, and not on a practice that can exploit and cheat the unwary FT - well I don't really know what to think of that, other than to conclude that I can decide myself what to think and when to be quiet - thank you very much |
I've got to agree with that!
Cheers and beers |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| superdave01 wrote: |
| IF it is the teacher who INSISTS on adding probationary periods(and probationary pay) to the contract... |
I think that the moment an employee develops the opinion that he can insist that his employer do anything then the employee should probably start looking for work elsewhere.
Whether you like it or not your employer is your boss, and your boss makes the rules. If you don't like the way that your boss does things then feel free to offer suggestions but I don't see that an employee is ever in a position to insist upon anything. If your boss not agree with your suggestions then exercise your right to leave, but don't pretend that you can run the show. If you want to be in the driving seat then invest in your own school and run it any way that you see fit.
| superdave01 wrote: |
| the fact is, it is the employer who dictates the contract terms... |
I don't see it as dictating at all. I see it as someone who has invested money in a business deciding how they want to run their business. If you don't agree with the way that they run their business then don't go there.
| superdave01 wrote: |
| probationary periods(pay) can be and are abused by many chinese companies...it is the teacher who is left high and dry when that happens....why chance it? teach elsewhere. |
The same could be said for employment contracts in general - are you suggesting that on this basis teachers should no longer sign contracts?
It seems simple really. There is nothing inherently wrong with a probationary period of employment, nor is there anything wrong with employers who require this. If you don't like the idea then find work elsewhere but I don't see any justification for suggestions that there is something 'corrupt' about these. |
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