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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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 Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Again..small towns are the easiest to get jobs as folks will attack you to get you to work for a school..to tell the truth ..I think a recruiter may be more valuable in Beijing ..where there is a lot of talent going for the same job...but in a small town where taxis are cheap and schools go out of their way to hire you..I see no need for a recruiter..that is if your already there...and most recruiters for institutions in small towns may have never been too or know anything about the school they place you in..also ..even if you don't know the school the local FTs know it better than a recruiter in a city far ways...
and as far as the sincerity of the schools..I have yet to meet a Chinese in charge of purchasing or anything to do with hiring who didn't have their hand in the cookie jar..this would be a major concern of mine..I have schools try and cheat me in every way possible..this would be just another grif...to tel the truth..most of the recruiters I have heard of haven't done much and some have been downright crooked..check out my post about Ms. Xia in Dalian..a recruiter who works with Chinese girls who become your girlfriend to help skim your pay...she will hold your paperwork and refuse to let you out of the working arrangement..most who work for her ..flee China to avoid the problems of her "henchmen"
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| And we also support good recruitment companies that have a proven track record of helping teachers in China. |
and that being the case..and with personal reference..I would consider ..having a recruiter present what they can offer..but as you say..I would not limit myself to working with a "headhunter"... |
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wokdontrun
Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: I KNOW HOW RECRUITERS WORK!!!!! (Well one anyway) |
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| I initially came to China through a recruiter. I was pretty naive about it. During the summer break between semesters they asked if I wanted to recruit teachers for the upcoming school year. I don't know why but I agreed. Everyone makes mistakes. Anyway, my company works like this: They place teachers into the Shanghai public school system. most of their teachers are rookies like I was that come over and don't know anything about the industry first hand. They will tell you what you want to hear on the phone and then after you sell your car, move all your stuff to storage, spend a lot on your visa, TEFL cert, air ticket, travel meds, etc and leave the life you knew behind you get here and surprise! Things change and they have you by the balls (this is my first post on here, can I say that?). When I was still in the states my company said I would live in downtown and there would be other teachers I could get to know, etc. When I got here they through me in the suburbs where NO ONE spoke ANY English. They also told me my salary would be low at first because of all the training involved but there was no training. They threw me out there and said "good luck". Also, very important, when they "hired" me they just gave me permission to come for an interview. If I would have failed the interview they would have sent me packing. Long story short...I ended up working for them during the summer and I only ended up getting 2 teachers out of the thousands of applicants. The schools give the recruiters 150 RMB/ session for you. You might get about 80 of that. Also, they take out 2000 from your salary every month for accommodation. In my case at the first school accommodation was free I later learned. They still charged me for it. Even if it's not free they'll still put you in a place that costs 1000 and your roommates will either like cheese and avoid cats all day or they will have 6 legs and like the dark. On top of it all you dont get to pick your school. I protested and wanted to move downtown and they put me in 2 middle schools. I hate middle schools. The kids are like monkeys but I had no choice. And for that 150 they get for your work, you will get passed around from person to person like a bag of doritos and everyone will get their cut and you get left overs. One more F'ed up thing is that if you miss a session, you must pay them 150RMB for each session. That's right, it costs money to miss lessons. They say it's to hire a sub but they won't. Then they say it ruins their reputation. The recruiters are worthless too. They can't tell you what hospital to go to if you're sick, how to wire money home, where something is, etc. They're also bad about solving problems. They will say "It's not my fault." or talk to _______." or they will give an excellent answer to the exact question you DIDN'T ask. I can write forever. If you have any questions let me know. By the way, I never recieved my commission for the 2 teachers I recruited. I only recruited 2 because I refused to lie. People didn't like hearing bad things about the accommodation or not being told where they would teach. Recruiters also might put you an hour away from your school or give you more than one school. Shady characters. Watch out. They did get me a visa however. One teacher I brought over here just used them for the visa then quit. Good for him! I don't recommend you do that though. Maybe a recruiter is the best way to get over here but sign the shortest contract possible and say you'll live in their housing for 2 weeks or whatever and then you'll find your own. Hope this sheds some light on things. After I quit I'll let it be known who I'm talking about. I can't get fired yet, they're setting me up with an air ticket (kind of). |
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christee
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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wokdontrun,
Wow - that sounds like an awful experience. We only recruit and deal with international schools (which are private, all English schools for diplomat and expat children). We're also held accountable to an extent by them. As seen in your experience, I can imagine there is little oversight of a company recruiting for public schools in Asia. I can understand why you're wary! |
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NathanRahl
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Christee, I grow kind of weary of seeing you posting here. It is all well and good to say that your some God like pristine figure in the recruiter community, however, if this is so, please, give us your sight url so we can visit it, find out about you, and ask others on this forum if any of therm have had good, or bad experiences with your company.
I can claim anything in writing christee, that doe's not make it so. I say put up or, well you know. |
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christee
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| NathanRahl wrote: |
| Christee, I grow kind of weary of seeing you posting here. It is all well and good to say that your some God like pristine figure in the recruiter community, however, if this is so, please, give us your sight url so we can visit it, find out about you, and ask others on this forum if any of therm have had good, or bad experiences with your company. |
I don't blame you, I grow weary of posting in this thread as well! It's been on the bottom of all my posts: http://www.educatorsoverseas.com. But again, we only recruit for international schools, not ESL schools.
| NathanRahl wrote: |
| I can claim anything in writing christee, that doe's not make it so. I say put up or, well you know. |
Wow, I don't think we've ever claimed to be a God in the recruiting industry or anything. I've never claimed we work miracles; we probably wouldn't be able to place someone who doesn't have a teacher's certificate, has never worked overseas, and has 4 kids. All I claim and all I've ever claimed is that Educators Overseas is legit and doesn't charge teachers money or make them go to fairs (facts you can read on our website). That's it. I have no idea about public schools or ESL schools like the wokdontrun and I'm the first to admit that. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| we probably wouldn't be able to place someone who doesn't have a teacher's certificate, has never worked overseas, |
Then christee, you may be surprised to know that more than a few teachers have placed themselves without proper certificates in international schools around Beijing...being able to do so cause there is not enough qualified teachers to fill the need.. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
Again..small towns are the easiest to get jobs as folks will attack you to get you to work for a school..
.. in a small town where taxis are cheap and schools go out of their way to hire you..I see no need for a recruiter..that is if your already there...and most recruiters for institutions in small towns may have never been too or know anything about the school they place you in..also ..even if you don't know the school the local FTs know it better than a recruiter in a city far ways... |
I disagree with this from a practical point of view.
First off the far majority of people who use recruiters are people who are looking to come to China, or looking for placements in another city or province. If you are looking for alternate work in the same town then I would agree that the value of a recruiter may be limited, but then I really doubt that we are really talking about these teachers anyway.
Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines of your post, but if a newbie were to read your post he or she may get the idea that it is a good idea to just head off to a small town in China and then try to find work when they get there. There is certainly a chance that they could get lucky and walk into a perfectly legal job within their first week of wandering about a small town, but there it is more likely that they would not - and I would certainly hate to be in their shoes if they didn't find work.
I conceded in an earlier post that you want to ensure that your recruiter has a working knowledge of the school that they are placing you in, but they do not have to, and would very unlikely live in the same town, especially if it were a small town. In fact I would recommend against dealing with a small town recruiter as although they may be able to get you a job, they are probably unlikely to understand the complexities and requirements of legal work for foreigners.
This is really an important point here and one that I will bold. I am only making reference to legal work with a Z visa as a teacher, as personally I believe that most of the complaints about schools and teaching in China come from teachers in illegal positions - whether the teacher knows that they are illegal or not.
For anyone to think that just coming to China and having a look around will land them a legal job, I would say that they are pretty likely going to be disappointed. This is not so much about recruiter or no recruiter, but more about preparation.
| cj750 wrote: |
| ..to tel the truth..most of the recruiters I have heard of haven't done much and some have been downright crooked..check out my post about Ms. Xia in Dalian..a recruiter who works with Chinese girls who become your girlfriend to help skim your pay... |
A perfect example of what I would call a bad recruiter and one that should be seperated from recruiters and labelled for what it is - a 'company' to be avoided.
Does Ms. Xia work under a company name? Do they maintain an office, website etc? Other than your experience with them, what is their reputation?
Don't get me wrong cj I am not trying to shift blame onto you. I am just trying to point out that there are legitimate recruitment companies and there are individuals who do recruitment. I have already suggested in an earlier post what I would consider to be a valid recruitment company, and I am not sure that Ms. Xia's gang really fits that profile.
So it still seems to me that good recruiter can serve a role for those seeking legal positions throughout China. I agree that there are other options and totally support those who choose other options for finding work such as approaching schools directly, but I don't support blanket statements about recruiters not serving any purpose, nor that you are sure to get a better job if you do it yourself. |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps I am reading too much between the lines of your post, but if a newbie were to read your post he or she may get the idea that it is a good idea to just head off to a small town in China and then try to find work when they get there. There is certainly a chance that they could get lucky and walk into a perfectly legal job within their first week of wandering about a small town, but there it is more likely that they would not - and I would certainly hate to be in their shoes if they didn't find work.
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i think they would be better served to do this than to rely on a headhunter...but no..it would be better to do just what a recruiter does..check with the opening of the schools..and then apply direct..
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| I conceded in an earlier post that you want to ensure that your recruiter has a working knowledge of the school that they are placing you in, but they do not have to, and would very unlikely live in the same town, especially if it were a small town. In fact I would recommend against dealing with a small town recruiter as although they may be able to get you a job, they are probably unlikely to understand the complexities and requirements of legal work for foreigners |
A recruiter who has an advantage to see the working conditions of a school will have to be held accountable..and can give none of this.."I didn't know" routine that we so often hear from the Chinese agencies..
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This is really an important point here and one that I will bold. I am only making reference to legal work with a Z visa as a teacher, as personally I believe that most of the complaints about schools and teaching in China come from teachers in illegal positions - whether the teacher knows that they are illegal or not.
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Again we differ...I think most complaints are from teachers who have had legal contracts broken..and recruiters can do nothing bout this...and if they try..then they are Xed out of the next placement..
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For anyone to think that just coming to China and having a look around will land them a legal job, I would say that they are pretty likely going to be disappointed. This is not so much about recruiter or no recruiter, but more about preparation.
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That is precisely what most of the best prepared teachers will do..find a job..fulfill the legal work visa obligations..and show up to work..pretty easy in china..
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| I am just trying to point out that there are legitimate recruitment companies and there are individuals who do recruitment. |
Even if legal their abilities are limited...there is an e employment fair listed on the China page of esl cafe job announcements...this is as far as I think the agencies can go..to help a potential FT... |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Clark -
As you know, I have never been a fan of your web site. I do not trust any of the information about schools.
However, I have come to appreciate that it does serve a valuable function and I have stopped criticising it and you.
In fact, your last post is excellent advice. NO ONE SHOULD JUST COME TO CHINA, ANY CITY LARGE OR SMALL, AND JUST LOOK AROUND FOR WORK. That is just plain ignorant. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| ....., I grow kind of weary of seeing you posting here. |
I grow kind of weary of seeing this thread go on and on, since it's becoming a nice sss "tool" for some. But, it's a forum after all and we all are free to keep it coming.
Peace to all recruiters, advertisers
and
cheers and beers to our forums  |
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NathanRahl
Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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What confuses me gibson is the simple contradictory nature of your actions. If you tire of this thread going on and on, as you say, why contribute to it, and continue it going on and on?  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| cj750 wrote: |
| i think they would be better served to do this than to rely on a headhunter...but no..it would be better to do just what a recruiter does..check with the opening of the schools..and then apply direct.. |
Certainly there are some advantages to dealing directly with schools. Finding the schools in the first place can be the biggest hurdle but if you have found a way to overcome that then that is great.
As per one of my earlier comments however I think that it is worth pointing out that dealing direct is not a cureall and research and preparation is still necessary. My biggest concern with dealing direct is that in doing so most people will naturally limit themselves to that one school and will therefore be totally reliant upon that school from the time they leave home till they get here. If they arrive at the said school and find that things are not as stated or if there is just something that the person does not like about the school then they are going to be in a predicament.
Sure the same could be true with a recruiter, but faced with this problem through a good recruiter you have someone who you can turn to for assistance with finding an alternative.
| cj750 wrote: |
| A recruiter who has an advantage to see the working conditions of a school will have to be held accountable..and can give none of this.."I didn't know" routine that we so often hear from the Chinese agencies.. |
Agreed. To be of value the recruiter must have a working knowledge of the schools for which they recruit. There are a number of recruiters out there who don't have this knowledge and the value that they can offer a teacher is questionable.
| cj750 wrote: |
| Again we differ...I think most complaints are from teachers who have had legal contracts broken..and recruiters can do nothing bout this...and if they try..then they are Xed out of the next placement.. |
There are definitely complaints from legal teacher out there about contract disputes - sometimes these are legitimate (in which case the teacher can turn to SAFEA or their local PSB for mediation assistance if required), but sometimes these 'complaints' are just misunderstandings or differing expectations for which no one is at fault really.
I am very confident however that the far majority of complaints are made by teachers who are working in China illegally as teachers on L or F type visas.
You make a good point about the value of the recruiter in solving problems during the contract period. I personally would not expect them to be required to be the problem solver unless they were the cause of the problem - but perhaps others views vary on this. For me, a recruiter gets paid a one off fee for an introduction. If they can be more helpful than this then that is great, but as most teachers are not paying any money I don't see what responsibility the recruiter has to the teacher provided that everything said about the placement was accurate.
If you want the protection of some sort of agency that looks after your needs each month then I would suggest that you should probably look into paying someone to do this. Perhaps the teacher paid recruitment I mentioned earlier may give you this level of protection as you are the customer not the school. But in most cases these types of agents want a management fee which they deduct from your wage each month. I question the value of this and think that the teacher is better off resolving problems directly with the school or through mediation.
| cj750 wrote: |
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For anyone to think that just coming to China and having a look around will land them a legal job, I would say that they are pretty likely going to be disappointed. This is not so much about recruiter or no recruiter, but more about preparation.
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That is precisely what most of the best prepared teachers will do..find a job..fulfill the legal work visa obligations..and show up to work..pretty easy in china.. |
That's right - they are finding work before they come to China and only come here with something lined up. My comment was about what I believed to be your suggestion that teachers come here first to find work outside of large cities.
How does a teacher who is looking to work anywhere outside of a big city find and contact schools to line this up before they come to China? The site I am involved with has the most extensive list that I am aware of, but even our site is only touching the surface here.
This is where a recruiter can play a valuable role - provided that they are a legitimate recruitment company.
| cj750 wrote: |
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| I am just trying to point out that there are legitimate recruitment companies and there are individuals who do recruitment. |
Even if legal their abilities are limited...there is an e employment fair listed on the China page of esl cafe job announcements...this is as far as I think the agencies can go..to help a potential FT... |
In China legal does not always equate to legitimate, although it is a good place to start.
I used the word legitimate as to me it seems that there are some very good companies out there who are legitimate in that they have invested in a legal company, office, website, and pursue a good reputation. They may not be legal recruitment companies however, but rather just consulting companies. This compared with the individual recruiter with a hotmail address, mobile phone, and internet access.
Malsol - I appreciate the support that you are now offering, and respect the fact that you have made this change of heart a public one. If you have any concerns with the reservations you mention about the list then I welcome you to contact me at that site. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| What confuses me gibson is the simple contradictory nature of your actions. If you tire of this thread going on and on, as you say, why contribute to it, and continue it going on and on? |
Good question Nathan, but don't be confused 
You keep it up here...it's a lovely one...we all try to make a buck somehow 
Peace to the hungry ones
and
cheers and beers to our forums |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| There are definitely complaints from legal teacher out there about contract disputes - sometimes these are legitimate (in which case the teacher can turn to SAFEA or their local PSB for mediation assistance if required), but sometimes these 'complaints' are just misunderstandings or differing expectations for which no one is at fault really. |
Dearest Clark - you seem to have a more than an average knowledge of these situations - how have you built your base of understanding on this subject - do you arbitrate between employer and employee - something you surely must do if you go as far a making the statement -
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| but sometimes these 'complaints' are just misunderstandings or differing expectations for which no one is at fault really |
How many cases of FT complaint have you heard of being settled by SAFEA and the local PSB - do you have professional links to these organisations - how can we trust your word in terms of factual evidence over the heresay of any Layman commentator in the forums  |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: |
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There are definitely complaints from legal teacher out there about contract disputes - sometimes these are legitimate (in which case the teacher can turn to SAFEA or their local PSB for mediation assistance if required), but sometimes these 'complaints' are just misunderstandings or differing expectations for which no one is at fault really.
I am very confident however that the far majority of complaints are made by teachers who are working in China illegally as teachers on L or F type visas.
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Safea is a not a mandatory organization and not that many schools belong to it...and the PSB can do nothing about disputes and so it goes to the labor board....and mediation does not have to be accepted, next is court and a headhunter will not help with that......and the misunderstandings you speak of ..is not the experiences I have had..I have always been legal and have yet to work at a school that has been on the up and up (internationals and Chinese)...and I am not as confident as you that most problems between foreigners are due to their illegal status and misunderstandings...and if you have that information please share the source...not only that but in going on 5 years in china ..I have never heard of a recruiter that has helped in any dispute..if there are they do not need a web site to offer services..but would be swamped with calls from word of mouth...
I can understand your motivation for this type of advice..but I do not think it is from the best advantage for an applicant...and I think that the amount of help from SAFEA or the PBS is non existent and to insist that either of these agencies can or will offer a resolution may be on the ill responsible side.. |
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