Job Discussion Forums

[Sheikh Inal Ovar]

[White_Elephant]

[zorro (2)]

Sorry to have rocked the boat. I genuinely didn't mean to upset you. I realise that saying wikipedia was not a good source was not a very nice thing to say. I simply meant for a little reflection on the use of the word profession in our context. Nevermind, perhaps I should reflect alone.

[spiral78]

Gordon, how's it going with your new addition? You've left us hanging on the third or fourth visit to the hospital for delivery!! Hope all's well and happy with your third little one, and your wife as well

[White_Elephant]

[Gordon]

[zorro (2)]

meritless personal opinions. thanks. Does not considering this to be a profession mean that I have the wrong attitude to work in ESL? Do people who work in charities to help the homeless (the first example I could think of...) have to consider that they are working in a profession to give value to their lives? I think you're making extraordinary judgements about me when you have no idea who I am.

Then again I'm in a bind here, because my personal opinions are meritless (I knew there was a point scoring system hidden on this website somewhere!!)

I'll ignore your patronising overtones as well.

[Miyazaki]

This old argument!

There are EFL teachers in Korea, Japan and other countries that are organized. They are members of a union for teachers and other trades. Doesn't this constitute being a member of a "profession?"

Also, what about the teacher who has done a B.Ed, CELTA, DELTA (or Trinity cert and diploma), M.A. TESOL (or M.A. Applied Linguistics), and PhDs in Education (TESOL, Applied Linguistics, etc.)?

What about the university, college, high school and British Council instrucotrs I've met who are members of TESOL, KOTESL, and JALT? These are "professional organizations." Many TEFL'ers are members of these organizations and pay yearly dues to belong to them.

These organizations also put on conferences. Many TEFL'ers attend these conferences and present papers and particpate in scholarly discussions.

Is Rod Ellis not a professional? What about David Nunan and all of the other well-known and published TEFL'ers in Asia?

Aren't the above people "professional" TEFL'ers or professional language "Educators?"

Sure, strong arguments can be made that 23 year old Ken and Barbie, teaching at NOVA in Tokyo, without any formal teaching qualifications, aren not EFL professionals.

EFL is taught in universities, colleges, high schools, coporations, and language schools. Each medium requires different qualifications, experiences and knowledge and skills.

Are TEFL'ers "professionals?"

That all depends, doesn't it.

[zorro (2)]

There are enough people who teach ESL who consider it to be a profession or a valued career, yet still there is the awkardness of telling people that you teach ESL. How many of you feel uncomfortable in divulging this? How many of you are proud of this fact? I'm not talking about your qualifications here. I'm proud of mine too. I mean, for example, in a situation where there is an economics professor, a teacher of English Lit., a doctor (although I am aware of the cliche of this example) or a sales manager. I know this is a question of status as well, but my point is that ESL teaching is largely considered to be a 'gap fill' or an 'I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my life' activity.

I have to go to bed now, but I have plenty more to say on this if anyone is interested.

BRING PRIDE TO ESL!!!

[jammish]

Again, I think it's largely about what you do with it. I can save much more here in China than I could back in the UK. I could use the money when I return for the deposit on a house, or to start a business. I will return better off than I was before. If I do a PGCE my years teaching at a primary school here should help with the application.

[slaqdog]

There is a residency qualification-three years- for people applying for a grant to do it. So if you are coming straight from abroad to do it in the UK will be very expensive

[rdix]

Even Dave's Internet Cafe Board - doesn't distinguish between genuine job offers, and yet one more profiteer offering to train TEFL in a given country, - with guaranteed jobs to follow (check it out.)

I went to TEFL International, Ban Phe, Thailand. (More later.) This is a business market, and you - the paying students - are items being marketed! You who choose to be teachers of ESL are a market to be exploited by TEFL training companies, then by "Agencies" that will find you a job in any given country, - then finally by the School or Educational Institution, private of State-run. -- that you choose to walk into sight-unseen.
DON'T YOU GET IT YET?
I may be in the wrong forum - if so kick me out - but as a senior British business professional - not in languages - in sciences - with, would you believe a TEFL Certificate from Thailand, - I have this to say to my younger friends, - of whom I have many, - TEFOL/TESOL/EFL is a noble pursuit. Just watch out for the money-making charlatans out there, who care nothing about education and all about their deposits in various Asian Banks. And it's your money they're talking about. It's called "commission"

Thailand, as of November 2006, is screwed up. They've become paranoid about pedophiles, - have no plan in place to deal with it, - so they're doing what orientals do best, - clap down on everyone. Thailand = Visa problems big time. Put Thailand on the bottom of your list. But do wait for better news. Even Thailand can't be that stupid.

Bribes are always useful. Korean slimey bribery in the ESL market has gone beyond the bounds of common decency. Don't get involved. Koreans fundamentally are opportunistic thieves.

China still has some authority, being basically a Communist country. China is worth a try. I like China.

Look Westerners, South East Asia doesn't really like you, and will eventually take you for everything you have to offer. Live with it or go home.
Roger

[Venti]

Uh-oh,

Somebody has diarrhea of the keyboard and a constipation of any real ideas.

Who piss#d in your pool, rdix?

[Mark]

These discussion are always a bit silly. There are two points that get made over and over again:

1) TEFL experience is worthless

2) TEFL is dead-end

So, you're telling me that spending 5 years teaching in a country and then learning the language is useless for somebody who plans to get an MBA and work in international business, possibly being transferred back to that same country?

If you want to go home and be a mechanic or a paramedic or a programmer, then yes, your overseas experience probably won't count for much. But if you want to become a programmer, your experience as a paramedic probably won't count for much either.

And the TEFL is dead-end thing? What does that mean? That you can't infinitely advance yourself? How is this different than most careers? You hit a salary cap? Does this only happen in TEFL?

This also assumes that one is only going to teach in private language schools forever. Who seriously does that? There are regular staff positions in K-12 schools, international schools, bilingual schools, universities, university-prep programs. There are publishing and materials developing opportunities. There are translation opportunities, provided you've learned the language of the place where you live.

This argument also assumes that you're only going to teach TEFL, rather than teach TEFL and do other things. Why can you not have a university teaching position, do some translation on the side, and puruse other things you're interested in as well? Some folks might do web design, some folks might contribute articles to international publications. People do all kinds of things.

[White_Elephant]