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DaXueSheng
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 7
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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 Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Yes, my buddy Joe! He was one of the best examiners the BC ever had in south China.
I agree with his statement to a point. I mean, it isn't particularly difficult as far as understanding and applying the band descriptors. What is, however, difficult is paying attention to everything the candidate says during the interview. You must listen very closely and carefully as you can easily miss something that would make a big difference in scoring. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
Personally I think the importance of the IELTS test is going to go down. If a program like GAC can develop and maintain standards, Any uni would prefer this over a one shot test score.
The new from London education bureau (see the students expelled thread) was that students wanting to study in the U.K. would need to have a "Proven track record" of education ... whether financial demands will make them acept just a test score in the future remains to be seen |
Education in the UK being a cash cow, I seriously doubt they will change the status quo to make it more difficult for Chinese people to study there. |
a rather desperate cash cow and not only in UK. mind you the current financial situation around the world may not help much as per quality of students in those privately owned educational institutions of western higher education. there're scores of chinese students' applications for the US now. and, some have even begun accepting the IELTS scores. what a competition to "improved" TOEFL. does any UK school accept TOEFL?
yes arioch, GAC could and should soon come in as a competitor to those proficiency exams. it's much better for judging the students' ability for higher education and that not only in a sense of the language capabilities. it provides a much broader evaluation of students assessing their skills in the areas of maths, business, science, social sciences and it goes into areas of writing projects, seminar paper as well as giving presentations on much more difficult topics than IELTS "stage two" requires. chinese have little or no idea about scocial sciences and virtually no skills giving presentations even in their own language. then, they're so weak in business and poor in maths languagewise. needless to say that GAC program's assessment of students isn't based on some 15 or 50 minutes.
my appologies for taking this topic away 
cheers and beers to all IELTS examiners that keep their integrity in this 5,000 or so years old country |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
| arioch36 wrote: |
Personally I think the importance of the IELTS test is going to go down. If a program like GAC can develop and maintain standards, Any uni would prefer this over a one shot test score.
The new from London education bureau (see the students expelled thread) was that students wanting to study in the U.K. would need to have a "Proven track record" of education ... whether financial demands will make them acept just a test score in the future remains to be seen |
Education in the UK being a cash cow, I seriously doubt they will change the status quo to make it more difficult for Chinese people to study there. |
a rather desperate cash cow and not only in UK. mind you the current financial situation around the world may not help much as per quality of students in those privately owned educational institutions of western higher education. there're scores of chinese students' applications for the US now. and, some have even begun accepting the IELTS scores. what a competition to "improved" TOEFL. does any UK school accept TOEFL?
yes arioch, GAC could and should soon come in as a competitor to those proficiency exams. it's much better for judging the students' ability for higher education and that not only in a sense of the language capabilities. it provides a much broader evaluation of students assessing their skills in the areas of maths, business, science, social sciences and it goes into areas of writing projects, seminar paper as well as giving presentations on much more difficult topics than IELTS "stage two" requires. chinese have little or no idea about scocial sciences and virtually no skills giving presentations even in their own language. then, they're so weak in business and poor in maths languagewise. needless to say that GAC program's assessment of students isn't based on some 15 or 50 minutes.
my appologies for taking this topic away
cheers and beers to all IELTS examiners that keep their integrity in this 5,000 or so years old country |
GAC is DOA. Logistics and candidates themselves are unhappy with a test that takes 3 & 1/2+ hours. I'd like to see anybody process and test 900 candidates a day using GAC. Monkey humping a football, anybody?
There are some universities in the UK and in other Commonwealth nations that do accept TOEFL -- probably the same percentage as US universities that accept IELTS.
It would be extremely difficult to claim that education of foreign nationals is not a much bigger cash cow in the UK than it is in the US. I'm not sure about other Commonwealth nations, though. I have heard that Australia, New Zealand and Canada actually do have standards. |
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DaXueSheng
Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Before they arrive:" Education agents, who drum up business for Australian universities overseas, have been shown in some cases to be charging students to falsify documents, including those certifying a student's ability in English" http://www.smh.com.au/news/Editorial/Undermined-by-degrees/2005/05/09/1115584906997.html
During their course: "Fresh allegations of soft marking and plagiarism cover-ups are suddenly emerging at Newcastle and the NSW Independent Commission Against Corruption is investigating the university." http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/08/23/1061529381771.html
After their course and the money is in the bank: "The university has checked more than two hundred masters projects and found that a significant proportion of fee-paying foreign students had been involved in plagiarism.
The university says it's now considering stripping those students of their degrees in order to protect its own academic integrity." http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2012274.htm
As for IELTS..."Thousands of foreign students are attempting to use fake qualifications to get into Australian universities because a degree is a successful form of back-door migration.
Forged English-language certificates are trading for as much as $10,000 on the black market and professional exam sitters are being hired to take the tests, a Herald investigation has found....In China there have been reports of a cheating industry using qiangshou (hired guns) who sit exams for a fee. In 2002-03 alone, the Beijing post of the Immigration Department identified 1550 cases of student visa applicants using bogus documents." http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/English-tests-faked-to-cheat-on-residency/2005/05/08/1115491048581.html |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| GAC is DOA. Logistics and candidates themselves are unhappy with a test that takes 3 & 1/2+ hours. I'd like to see anybody process and test 900 candidates a day using GAC. Monkey humping a football, anybody? |
Are you confusing GAC with the test ACT ... which all GAC students are forced to take, so that GAC Sydney can continue to use the ACT name? I tell my students that the ACT est has little value really. GAC is a 36 week plus curriculum that is actually pretty good compared to alternatives.
If only GAC could keep their standards high. The program is the answer to the testing system. You can pay someone to take a test, fake records etc. And witness China/humanity, even if some get caught, it will continue
GAC, you would have to pay someone for 9 months to go to school every day from 7:30 in the morning to 9:00 at night with just Sunday off, and sat afternoon. The uni gets the test scores confirmed through GAC, not a middleman |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| arioch36 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| GAC is DOA. Logistics and candidates themselves are unhappy with a test that takes 3 & 1/2+ hours. I'd like to see anybody process and test 900 candidates a day using GAC. Monkey humping a football, anybody? |
Are you confusing GAC with the test ACT ... which all GAC students are forced to take, so that GAC Sydney can continue to use the ACT name? I tell my students that the ACT est has little value really. GAC is a 36 week plus curriculum that is actually pretty good compared to alternatives.
If only GAC could keep their standards high. The program is the answer to the testing system. You can pay someone to take a test, fake records etc. And witness China/humanity, even if some get caught, it will continue
GAC, you would have to pay someone for 9 months to go to school every day from 7:30 in the morning to 9:00 at night with just Sunday off, and sat afternoon. The uni gets the test scores confirmed through GAC, not a middleman |
But the issue is that schools will not do anything to cripple the cash cow. Candidates don't want to sit a 3 & 1/2 hour IELTS much less a 9-month course. As good as GAC sounds, I'd be willing to bet it won't become anywhere near as universally accepted as IELTS or TOEFL. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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This is ancient news.
The issue of "gunners" was a concern beginning way back in 1997. Granted with the new II Gen ID cards in China it has made spotting fake ID cards easier, people are creative and there are still a number of relatively fool-proof ways to hire a gunner and come out smelling like a rose.
Not so long ago another loophole was also closed: the waiting period between sitting for subsequent tests. When in place, only the most moronic test taker followed that rule. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Joe C. wrote: |
It would be extremely difficult to claim that education of foreign nationals is not a much bigger cash cow in the UK than it is in the US. |
Why would that be difficult?
| Quote: |
| I'm not sure about other Commonwealth nations, though. I have heard that Australia, New Zealand .... actually do have standards. |
That's hilarious. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| Joe C. wrote: |
It would be extremely difficult to claim that education of foreign nationals is not a much bigger cash cow in the UK than it is in the US. |
Why would that be difficult? |
Because a retarded chimp with a fistfull of cash can get a visa to study in the UK as long as they have an IELTS score above 4. In the US many people have very high TOEFL / IELTS / GRE scores and cannot get a visa.
Because UK schools travel the globe practically kidnapping potential students. US universities have a take it or leave it approach.
Because in the UK universities will accept degrees from non-accredited Chinese universities whereas US schools will not.
Because that same retarded chimp in the UK is almost certain to graduate. In the US they would not.
Because few overseas students get scholarships. In the US those with high test scores that can eventually get a visa often get scholarships.
One of the funny things about actually conducting IELTS interviews for over 10k Chinese candidates is the responses you get when you ask the candidate why they chose to study in the UK over, say, Canada. 99% of the responses fall into one of the following:
1. I was refused acceptance by an American university;
2. I was refused a US visa;
3. In the UK I can get my degree in one year;
4. Nobody fails in the UK;
5. After I get a degree from the UK it's easier for me to go to the USA;
6. People in the UK speak pure English;
7. I want to work for a large British company like Coke when I come back to China. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| So how many foreign students are enrolled in the UK each year, and how many in the US? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
| So how many foreign students are enrolled in the UK each year, and how many in the US? |
You don't need to be a Mensa math geek to know that question is irrelevant and the answer to that question would not prove your point.
You might be off to a somewhat decent start if the question were how many Chinese students study in the US versus the UK as a percentage of total student enrollment. And even then there are too many other variables at play. |
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bendan
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 739
Location: North China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Well, it's definitely true that low quality students from developing countries can get into the UK more easily, but "retarded chimps" from relatively developed places like Korea have little trouble finding places in the US. Are you saying the UK should discriminate a bit more against third-world applicants like the US does?
But you are right on one point. Many UK universities (but not, as Joe C would have you believe, all) have no standards at all.
What does your employer think of your rosy view of British education, by the way? |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| bendan wrote: |
Well, it's definitely true that low quality students from developing countries can get into the UK more easily, but "retarded chimps" from relatively developed places like Korea have little trouble finding places in the US. Are you saying the UK should discriminate a bit more against third-world applicants like the US does?
But you are right on one point. Many UK universities (but not, as Joe C would have you believe, all) have no standards at all.
What does your employer think of your rosy view of British education? |
It's discrimination to admit applicants on the merits rather than on financial ability? There's something wrong with that picture.
In any event, I am not saying the UK should have more stringent standards. My understanding of UK education as a whole -- and please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken -- is that for UK citizens there are very high standards and that these are only relaxed for overseas students who have practically zero change of permanently staying in the UK after graduation.
Those that you mention that do have lower standards may have these lower standards only for overseas students.
My employer could care less what my views are about education in the UK or elsewhere. As long as I am able to do my job well, I am sure they realize that a) I do not speak for the BC or for anybody but myself and b) freedom of opinion is as stongly rooted in British culture as it is in American. |
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arioch36
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 3589
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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About the same number of Chinese go to America and the UK, a bit over 50,000 as I remember.
However that is hardly the whole picture. Of course there are far more students in America, so the percentage of CHinese is far less. However the percentage of Chinese grad students to BS students is far higher in the US. Grad students get far more financial aid in the states, the average PHd student ends up paying next to nothing
The British system is far more reliant on Chinese students. They also rely heavily on euro students, buit CHinese students are the biggest cash cow.
GAC will never be as universial as any test (such as IELTS), but I would like to se uni's give more credence to such programs. The most disgusting new trend is US schools starting to play the game of joint venture schools in CHina where the "student" pays 3 to 4 times much tuition, with the prize of an eventual US diploma no matter how poor the student
Had no idea about the rest of Bendan's argument , you seemed to be arguing against your self ... standards equaling discrimination against 3rd world countries is your gist? |
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