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Amazing Experiment: Current Job Market
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Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> China (Job-related Posts Only)

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igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

Cost of living in China may be rising, salaries may be stagnant, but the packages on offer with most Chinese employers are still very generous for the industry.

I agree with most of this, except that "generous". The word in case is a relative term here. Salaries of locals have gone up quite a bit in past decade, haven't they? FTs terms and conditions have worsened rather than improved, and that does not compensate in the same way as before, does it?

7969

Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:05 am Post subject:

igorG wrote:

Quote:

Cost of living in China may be rising, salaries may be stagnant, but the packages on offer with most Chinese employers are still very generous for the industry.

perhaps your plight has worsened, but many of us are seeing improved conditions. my salary increased 1500/month at the start of this year for the same amount of work as last year. it's my belief you will get what your employer thinks you're worth. for some of us that means improving conditions, not worsening.

Last edited by 7969 on Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total

Frank_Castle

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Posts: 6

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:06 am Post subject:

kev7161 wrote:

Quote:

have you ever tried to buy a fresh mango in Canada? $2-3 per. I can get six of them for about RMB5 just down the road.

Conversely, have you ever tried to buy an avocado in China (at least in my area)? 2 average sized ones can easily cost me 60 rmb or more and I just hope they are not already rotting inside. That's, what, about $10.00 for 2 avocados?!?

About 15 yuan each in Beijing at any Jenny-Lou's. I think you need to change area's Kev Question

Teatime of Soul

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Salaries of locals have gone up quite a bit in past decade, haven't they? FTs terms and conditions have worsened rather than improved, and that does not compensate in the same way as before, does it?

And yet, schools fill open teacher positions. I don't know of any schools closing due to a foreign teacher shortage. Why don't schools just collapse for want of teachers?

There must be something at work here. There should be some kind of underlying principle or science that addresses how money related needs and wants are met.

If someone were to invent such a thing, say, called money theory or moneynomics, that could explain the situation, couldn't it?

Or, perhaps it is all part of a vast, shadowy conspiracy by a secret cabal that meets in the dark, echoing, corridors of power.

I now have no theories to offer, only questions.

The truth is out there.

nickpellatt

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject:

igorG wrote:

Is it fair to compare FT packages to local packages? Im not sure on that one really. Skills sets and circumstances vary so greatly, and many local packages arent too attractive IMO. I would prefer to compare EFL>EFL, school>school, country>country. I can see it must be hard for people according to circumstances though and I dont envy those who struggle.

The one thing I would be confident in saying is all the lower salaried gigs, and all the entry level work will continue to attract applicants simply because Chinese packages including flights and housing COMBINED with a low cost of living makes EFL China a lot more attractive than EFL work in many countries around the world. Im pretty sure China is near the top of the pile in terms of qualifications needed/hours worked/benefits/spending power. The number of people coming to China to teach is only going to rise IMO, making the problem worse.

If it wasnt for a supportive family I absolutely couldnt work EFL in England, people I do work with here are only going two ways ... EFL in other countries, or leaving it far behind and doing something different.

** edited to add this**

My contract in Poland that I dropped last minute was for 25x50 min classes a week, mixed levels and some in-company classes. Extra 2.5 hours a week standby. (Thats a pretty full schedule IMO).

Shared housing included, no utilities or internet paid. No bonus or flight money home (Flight there was paid, but from the UK only)

4 weeks paid holiday.

Salary approx 3500 RMB per month. Sad

China could still be an undiscovered secret for lots of people toiling in the EU with similar packages!

A'Moo

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: a supermarket that sells cheese

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:05 am Post subject:

[quote="7969"]

The Great Wall of Whiner wrote:

west2east wrote:

Even a 5K Salary in a second tier city here will yield a higher savings potential and standard of living than most people in a similar job back home.

59% live paycheque to paycheque: poll

to address one part of the poll: if 59% of Canadians are living paycheque to paycheque and would be in financial difficulty if their pay were even one week late, then there isn't much saving going on in Canada. .

59% of Canadians are living paycheque to paycheque-whilst driving and paying off a 2010 Jeep Wrangler X or H3 and paying a mortgage on a 500k home-thats why they are just making it...
I can assure you, if their greatest pleasures were taking buses from food stall to food stall to decide on which has the best noodles, working at a school which will never pay them a pension, going home to accom that will never be theirs, I suppose you can feel there is a comparison...
Oh-dont get sick here while living paycheque to paycheque...

igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:30 am Post subject:

7969 wrote:

igorG wrote:

Quote:

Cost of living in China may be rising, salaries may be stagnant, but the packages on offer with most Chinese employers are still very generous for the industry.

10 years ago, unis around offered 5000-6000 RMB for 10 teaching hours weekly. Little or no paperwork was required then. Is it the same today? And, office hours are becoming quite an issue around, don't they? Needless to compare the level of respect from locals today to what it was then, or to discuss the private language institutions on mainland.
As for the salary talks, do you really "believe" the local employers can see what we are worth? It sure works for "some of us" but I wouldn't go so far as to say "many of us", and that if it comes down to terms and conditions especially.

Quote:

igorG wrote:
I agree with most of this, except that "generous". The word in case is a relative term here. Salaries of locals have gone up quite a bit in past decade, haven't they? FTs terms and conditions have worsened rather than improved, and that does not compensate in the same way as before, does it?
Nick replied:
Is it fair to compare FT packages to local packages? Im not sure on that one really. Skills sets and circumstances vary so greatly, and many local packages arent too attractive IMO. I would prefer to compare EFL>EFL, school>school, country>country. I can see it must be hard for people according to circumstances though and I dont envy those who struggle.

Yes, we surely are talking about fairness and honesty. We were lured to this country 10-20 years ago, when even the locals that had studied English for years here were not able to understand anything or say much to us then. So, there's no need to "attract" anymore, is there? Does it sound fair? I am really not sure on that one as well.
As for the local packages that most likely are as tough as they come in a sense of terms and conditions, they have increased with respect to starting salaries quite a bit, if we compare today to a decade ago. Moreover, there are more regulations from the central government that protect the local employees more than then, although many local employers find their ways to abuse them anyway.
Having said that above, I strognly believe that comparing improvements in between the local and foreign packages is not to be overlooked here.

Quote:

Quote:
Salaries of locals have gone up quite a bit in past decade, haven't they? FTs terms and conditions have worsened rather than improved, and that does not compensate in the same way as before, does it?
Teatime reply:
And yet, schools fill open teacher positions. I don't know of any schools closing due to a foreign teacher shortage. Why don't schools just collapse for want of teachers?

Wouldn't the answer be the internet? And, maybe the fact that so many of us, as I have pointed out above, have been lured into friendlier terms and conditions years ago plays a role in as well. Oh, let's not forget the fact that we have actually prepared those that now manage the job market on mainland.

Happy New Year to Job advertisers as well as FTs in the local Job Market

Teatime of Soul

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:53 am Post subject:

I think your point about the Internet is an interesting point. The Internet is a powerful tool of disintermediation. It's hard to imagine searching for jobs in China today without the Internet.

Steinmann

Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Location: In the frozen north

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:00 am Post subject:

Teatime of Soul wrote:

It's hard to imagine searching for jobs in China today without the Internet.

Oh, man, that's a lot of shoe leather.

igorG

Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:31 am Post subject:

Steinmann wrote:

Teatime of Soul wrote:

It's hard to imagine searching for jobs in China today without the Internet.

Oh, man, that's a lot of shoe leather.

This has made my day Laughing

There above in my previous post, where I mentioned the internet, I forgot to point out that so many employment agreements around mainland China are very similar and much more difficult to negotiate today than before. This fact also gives FTs in the country little room to refuse a job today. On the other hand, this empowers the local employers. So, they've got internet, more uniformed market, and better knowledge of English language (usually in their staff members) than before.

Teatime of Soul

Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:56 am Post subject:

This is perhaps a global phenomenon. When ebay rolled out, many collectors discovered, to their dismay, that their prized collection of something was available for a fraction of what they'd desire as a selling point. Disintermediation reduces the price to the buyer. There may be parallels in the labor market.

7969

Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:18 am Post subject:

igorG wrote:

7969 wrote:

igorG wrote:

Quote:

Cost of living in China may be rising, salaries may be stagnant, but the packages on offer with most Chinese employers are still very generous for the industry.

I got to china in 2003 and worked 16 hours per week for 3500 (first job in china). I now work 12-14 or so per week and earn more than twice as much and the job is far better than that first one.

i dont think you have a leg to stand on if you're complaining about a workload going from 10 to 14 or 16 hours per week. most of us are working hours here that barely qualify as part time work in most places. how much time off did you get back home each year? i have about five months off per year with pay give or take a week or two.

as for the paperwork (you didn't specify what paperwork, so i assume you mean visas, letters of reference etc), there were people lamenting that in the past china didn't require any paperwork to work here and that anyone who had two legs and could breathe had a job waiting. now that there are some actual requirements for the job some people are still unhappy. at least paperwork might keep out some of the riff raff who either cant, or wont bother to meet minimum requirements.

office hours? never had any and i'm willing to bet most people at a college job dont either. language mills have them but i'd never work at one of those places anyway.

respect from locals? I firmly believe that if you treat people well, they'll treat you well. I've been in the same location for five years now and cant remember one time when i felt disrespected here.

A'Moo wrote:

7969 wrote:

to address one part of the poll: if 59% of Canadians are living paycheque to paycheque and would be in financial difficulty if their pay were even one week late, then there isn't much saving going on in Canada. .

your life may have consisted of going from noodle shop to noodle shop, i assure you mine does not, and I'm sure many others feel the same.

i don't now where you're from but you're seriously misinformed on the current living standards and retirement prospects of the average canadian.

many are scraping by because of higher taxation (more to come in the new year), lower pay increases or complete stagnation in pay, higher cost of living year on year, easy credit and an over-willingness to use it, and poor money management skills. expensive homes and cars have much less to do with the problem than the other points listed.

as for the pensions, there is major reform on the way as most canadians don't pay into a defined pension plan (those are almost exclusively for public servants) and fewer and fewer private companies are paying the same pensions as in the past because the costs have skyrocketed. there are two pensions that all canadians can collect at age 60 and/or 65 and they're on pretty solid ground but they max out for most people at about $1000/mo. they'll barely keep you alive unless you've got some other form of savings to reach a living standard even remotely close to what you had before retirement. the government has recognized that too many people have no financial plan for retirement, therefore change is coming.

dont take my word for it though, read the daily articles in any Canadian newspaper and find out for yourself.

ultimately, (have to make some connection to china here) china doesn't offer much in the way of job security (which place does these days?) and none of us will be seeing any pension from this country, but for those of us who have planned carefully that wont matter one iota. the cost of living here is still lower than wherever home is and it's still possible to bank half of your salary here.

igorG wrote:

Steinmann wrote:

Teatime of Soul wrote:

It's hard to imagine searching for jobs in China today without the Internet.

Oh, man, that's a lot of shoe leather.

This has made my day Laughing

what exactly is so difficult? judging by the posts some people on here make good jobs with excellent salaries are out there. you just have to find them. as well, some people are simply better negotiators than others. unless you've got a union to back you up when you come to china you take your chances here. you might get a generous offer and you might not. if you feel you got cheated somehow relative to the FT one school over, who are you going to blame?

igorG wrote:

little room to refuse a job? please elaborate?

wangdaning

Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject:

Instead of quoting I decided to improvise for a shorter post. As far as pay rate goes, maybe China is better. I think the skilled (apprentices) craftsmen from our home countries with 5+years and a pension would laugh at us. (Quite possible their pension will fall through based on budget cuts and we can feel sorry for them). That aside, I think the skill of being an effective EFL teacher has been put down here. Sure I can walk in a class and piss around, but can I get people to understand? An actual teacher cares about that, and an employer who care thinks about it too. Making money is not a Chinese thing, and this happens the world over. Anybody who thinks about it wonders about their salary. It is natural. Could I get more?

nickpellatt

Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject:

Quote:

[quote="igorG"]We were lured to this country 10-20 years ago, when even the locals that had studied English for years here were not able to understand anything or say much to us then.

Having said that above, I strognly believe that comparing improvements in between the local and foreign packages is not to be overlooked here.

I cant imagine what things would have been like 20 years ago, maybe even 10 years ago. There should be an interesting thread on that topic! Setting aside salaries, I bet the living and everything else was so wildly different it would be unrecognisable today.

Actually I do think improvement for local people have probably increased 10 fold. I recently heard from one of my old college students who has recently been to both Germany and The Netherlands on business with her company, and she is just an average students without a Uni degree, just a college diploma. Of course I dont know her salary etc, but opportunities like the ones she enjoys wouldnt have existed in the recent past I guess.

Probably the only increased opportunity for FTs is in choice. Lot more employers and locations now.

A'Moo

Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: a supermarket that sells cheese

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject:

Teatime of Soul wrote:

This is perhaps a global phenomenon.

When ebay rolled out, many collectors discovered, to their dismay, that their prized collection of something was available for a fraction of what they'd desire as a selling point. Disintermediation reduces the price to the buyer.

There may be parallels in the labor market.

That is a legitmate point...If the one school in Buttferk Guanxi that needed a foreign esl taecher required that he/she arrive in person, how many applicants would they receive? 12 hours from nerest airport, five bus changes etcetc...
Fresh college grads having their first potty break in that first bus depots Wc?

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